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Codependent No More
May 23, 2000
1:23 pm
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vositor
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I want to report progress. I haven't heard from my daughter in over a week. She ignored my ONE e-mail telling her she has mail at the house and should pick it up. My progress is that I'm not dithering about her neglecting her mail and I'm not wondering where she is or how she's doing. I don't care. She's now in the same category as all my other friends and relatives, whom I love but about whom I do not fret and dither.

Absense does not make my heart grow fonder! It's probably the most significant factor in my sorting myself out. It's been easier because the decision to be absent is entirely hers - I didn't have to do the hard work while she was in my face carping at me and making unreasonable demands.

I hope Brenda reads this.

May 23, 2000
2:16 pm
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Brenda
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got it all on video tape mommy dearest

May 23, 2000
2:20 pm
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Brenda
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YOu have regressed not progressed, you are a dark soul who will never know the meaning of love, even your grandchildren despise you...you have no friends and your "relatives" have been poisoned by your abuse and hatred.
I have never encountered such a person with so much hate for self and others. And thankfully i never will again.

May 23, 2000
4:05 pm
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lol Brenda .. naughty girl! .. u surely didnt mean that! ..
Seriusly, brenda i think the word 'never' is not good to say to anyone. I remember my mother always used to use to the words 'never' or 'always' when talking to me. Like "you'll never learn", "u always act like an idiot", etc.

the hurt of these words and these negative messages effects me still, although i'm trying to get rid of these messages still lingering in my head. They lower my self-esteem and i have hard work, fighting them off when they try to attack me and put me down.

Well vositor, i think i agree with you to some extent, when u said that the absence is an important factor in sorting urself out.

It is the same with my mother. I had to leave house for career/education related purpose and i think i'm glad now to be living away from my mother, as she is realy a pain to be around. Even now, on the phone, she'll keep finding things so that she can criticize me, tell me i should do this, do that, and what not. finally i replied to her that she never trusted her children to think for themselves and she never thought the choices they made were good for themselves. (i heard that she was very angry after talking to me! .. hehe). The next time she says something i'm going to say to her that for her, seeing her children happy was never her first priority. u would be surprised to hear this, but she has lived her life for people, and always thought of herself as something lying on the showpiece, for people to see. The result? She's never happy. And she applies the same to her children naturally. She thinks of her children as something that should first of all 'look good', not caring what lies inside, never caring how happy or contented we are from inside.

i think, for me, going away from home and living on my own has been an important factor in helping me learn to make my own choices and recognize that my life is under my control now, not my mother's or family's and that i'm responsible for it and i will do as i please (which is the more preferred statement as it says u have the freedom to do anything u want to, and that is more positive)

ah well.. i'm working on it.
b/w vositor did u try talking to her on the phone..? maybe she had a bad day and she just didnt feel like getting back to you. I sometimes face bad days too, and sometimes they're so bad i dont feel like getting up and doing ANYthing, not talking to anyone, just feel that bad.

but i guess i really dont know ur situation. These are just my suggestions. good luck ..!

May 23, 2000
4:11 pm
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We must not allow other people's limited perceptions to define us--Virginia Satir ( from the threads page)

May 24, 2000
6:05 am
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hazza
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Brenda?
Why the venom? Have I missed something?

Haz

May 24, 2000
11:46 am
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yea brenda i hope everything is fine ? (i thought i would ask u before but i was afraid of saying too much)

May 24, 2000
12:41 pm
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It's my fault. She's furious with me. I told her her story in another thread doesn't make sense - and then I said what I think of her husband's behavior as she described it. It made me so mad I wanted to strangle him.

I haven't made as much progress as I thought - just transferred the savior impulse to a stranger.

She put the fear of God in me with the grandchild remark, though. Luckily there are none. Otherwise, the pickle we'd be in is horrible to imagine.

May 24, 2000
7:36 pm
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yay !!! .. we're got tough (as in 'strong') people in here (brenda and vositor). cool! :). i'm glad its ok now.

May 24, 2000
7:39 pm
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janes
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Somewhere in this morass is this post I wrote this a.m. vositor. It was long but basically said that I think you are on the right track especially considering that your daughter is grown. I have done the same things with my daughter that you have done with yours...not quite divorce but a distancing to save my soul and myself.

When we raise our children from babes they are takers...babies and toddlers are just that. But most mom's have great trouble stopping the controlling and giving the child the space needed to make the mistakes needed to grow and develop into a complete adult person.

Stop being codependent..Brenda's response to you is not your fault. she is a grown woman who needs to be able to accept another person opinion without attacking in that manner. We may all disapprove of Brenda's husbands behaviors, many of us may think he is a true jerk to her and the relationship. Perhaps we should tell her those things. BUT she can accept and/or reject our opinions and does regularly.

Perhaps I think she should get out of the relationship ... if I tell her that should I be venomously attacked and my personhood slandered?

You have a right to your opinion just as I have a right to mine. Brenda also has a right to her opinion...but none has a right to try to harm someone else personally.

this site is a good one for giving all of the savior complex. Many of us can dish it out but not accept when the advice is directed at us.

We are all strong yet we are all vulnerable. We have taken offense at times when none should be taken. We have all criticized when we should be keeping our fingers off the keyboard and reread our books.

You probably haven't proressed as much as you thought. but you are not a moomy dearest. You have become a dear mommy who has realized you were the one damgaing your child by holding on to tightly.

Now let go of brenda. We all care as I am sure you do... but... We cannot save others until we have saved ourselves.

Until we have our own problems 95% on the road to banishment we are all in the same boat...at times banging each other over the heads with the oars.

Antoher thought is that whatever you said to Brenda may have hit to close to home.

Reread the book.... Save yourself. Post here... just remember we are all nonprofessionals...just caretakers.

May 24, 2000
9:02 pm
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vositor: We all rage when we feel safe doing so. Its a human trait. Both you and Brenda have come far in a short span of time. It is only natural for us to take a step or two backwards when we test our new found wings of spirit. I do not "know" either one of you; however, I do KNOW both of you, for we are all sisters. Different paths crossing each other for a span of time to learn, grow, teach.

I have been doing some searching within, and find that I have codep issues which really do make me me. Being of the caretaker sign, I come by some of this without choice. Some I have developed over years of trying to be liked, worthy, whatever. One thing I will never want to change about me is the compassion I feel in the depth of me for others who have spirit pain. Sometimes I read these threads and have to just sit and let my spirit have a good cry for all the hurt spirits. From early childhood to adulthood, we have all had our share of @$#% dished out to us. What I pray will happen is the strength each of us has, at one time or another, will be passed along on these pages, and heal each other. Even ones who feel they have nothing to conribute in a positive way, give more than they realize. For where would we be if we couldn't reach out to another hurt spirit and give them a lift up. Human spirit mixed with Higher Spirit wins every time.

May we all find a moment of peace through understanding our pain and that of others...

May 25, 2000
9:46 am
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Wow. This is surreal, because I was the daughter.

From the daugter's perspective, it's so frustrating when you're trying hard to be independent, and you feel like your mom is just squishing you into the ground with her thumb saying, "no. you will not leave me." So I rebelled as hard and as fast as I could.

I have a great relationship with my Mom now. Why? She let go and loves me for who I am, with al lmy faults included, and accepts me for the flawed adult that I forced her to accept. I remember when I was leaving. It's a perfectly natural thing for a young adult to do, but she was so venemous and bitter and angry that I was leaving. I thought it was ridiculous. It's a normal developmental step but she just kept clinging to me until it was unbearable to even speak to her. Desperation. It smell awful.

I felt like I was trying to swim to an island I saw off in the distance, but there was this person draggin me down, clinging to my legs, pulling me under the water so Iwould be hurt and dependent on her for life. What a horrible thought.

Now, my Mom has finally let go. I love her unconditionally and accept her for who she is, but I have forgiven and NOT forgotten. I keep my distance. We aren't friends so much as happy acquaintences.

I can't help but remember the times she yelled at me, the angry glare of her cold eyes. In response to what? Me wanting to leave and make my own life? The very idea was almost unbelieveable to me. How could she want to hold me back like that?

Sorry so long. It's jsut that reading about this made me think about my mom. And I wanted to let you know the daughter isnt' seeking ot hurt you personally, she just wants you to let go. Once you've really done that, you two can build a new relaitonship out of trust and mutual respect on equal levels.

May 25, 2000
8:47 pm
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CiCi..as usual very succinct. It is good for me to read the daughters perspective.

Our mom's al had to go through this giving up time too.

Hopefully your experience will help you when you are a mom... that invisable umblical cord is amazingly hard to cut.

I did find a great book..."The seven worst mistakes a parnet can make..." If you can find it...anyone with children should read it. It's mostly about parenting

Luck to all.

May 26, 2000
3:19 pm
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Frieda
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Can't help but contribute my umbilical cord story: For a LONG time I felt like my umbilical cord was still attached... to my mother's corpse. Gross, huh? It was when my baby's cord fell off that I symbolically threw it away-- for my daughter and me, and to really separate from my mother. I wonder sometimes if she really ever did feel attached, as she left me, twice. Anyway, who needs that dead weight? 🙂

May 26, 2000
4:45 pm
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Brenda
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POWERFUL FRIEDA, AND i CAN SURE RELATE..UNFORTUNATELY.
JUST CAUSE YOU FORGIVE SOMEONE WHO IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE PERSON YOU SHOULD TRUST THE MOST BUT TURNS OUT TO BE THE PERSON YOU SHOULD BE MOST CAUTIOUS OF, DOES NOT MEAN YOU STAY ATTACHED...IVE USED MY SCISSORS TO SEVER MOST OF HER CORD..AND SHE IS MOSTLY DEAD WEIGHT

May 26, 2000
4:58 pm
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In my next life I'm going to have kittens. Daughters are way to complicated.

May 27, 2000
8:53 am
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Yes they are but ... I can say that without my daughter I would not have gorwn this much. I would still horribly terribly codependent and oblivious (something I always promised myself not to be)

So....although it has been tough and horrible and hard and ucky. .. I wouldn't change it. It takes alot of work for a chick to get out of an egg.

Takes alot of work for us to keep growing our whole lives and not to stop when we are "grown up"

Hey ladies....this is not brain surgury (thank goodness)

Let talk about sons!!! They can be a pain in the butt too. But can't all kids. Just our turn to try to raise them up and send them on to take their turn to raise 'em up and send them on.

And so the world turns.

May 27, 2000
11:01 am
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I wonder if we would have been codependent were it not for having kids. I would have thought it came from desperately wanting the kid to learn how to be a contributing member of society, and that the fixing and wiping up compulsions came from trying harder as the kid balked.

I was only 21 when I became a mother, so I haven't had any adult experience of NOT being (or feeling) responsible for my daughter. But I don't remember ever caring one way or another about what anybody else was doing as long as it didn't harm me.

May 27, 2000
11:07 am
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I see the problem with what I just said. If it were true I didn't care about what other people were doing as long as it didn't affect me, I wouldn't be passing judgment on other people's lives here in this group.

May 27, 2000
12:41 pm
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Mirror, mirror on the wall I emerged to post love to all. Seemingly, when I react, judge, neglect, withdraw , assume, and so on......I need to look into the mirror very deeply to see what part of ME is responing in the way of the moment. There is something about me that I don't like when I respond in the negitive sense.I begin to separate, file accordingly, and go inside my heart, not mind, to embrace the imperfect human becoming that I am. We are human beings of course due to conditioning, experiences, lack of nurturing, healthy, loving paths we have traveled. I like our human becoming for it empoweres forward movement, even just a little at a time. Beings such as daughters, sons, sisters, brothers, cousins, kittens, puppies, or anything else deserve's the birthright to become, not became, for their is always constant change evolving , like it or not. Resentments are one of the poisons of the human spirit. Forgive ourselves, forgive others, replace resentment with love, even at a distance.

May 28, 2000
8:03 pm
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i think i am codependent and have no self esteem i am screwing up my relationship at every turn i pick fight over little crap , during the fight i completely loss all control and do and say mean horrible things to force him to get rid of me. He has hung in there but i think this time i may have pushed to hard. i love him maybe he is not the one forever but i want to get better reguardless because i have never had a healthy relationship. how do i get better, how do find a counselor? where do i begin???

May 28, 2000
9:00 pm
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Brenda
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I feel I have let go of most of my resentment, but do I have to include that original abusor in my life or the life of my family because of blood? I forgive in the name of the spirit and knowing that person is in pain. but do i subject myself to this person s negative presence because of it?

May 28, 2000
9:55 pm
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Spirit
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Brenda: You have the right to stay away if being in the presence of the original abuser is too taxing on you. Can't remember if I disclosed that the sexual abusers in my life were my father, and two oldest brothers. Dealing with my father in the physical aspect was no big deal. He left the family when I was 7 and never physically saw him again. My brothers were another issue. I lived in the same house as they, and had to see them daily. Very taxing on a young teenager. The abuse came to an abrupt halt when I was 12. I took a very strong stand leaving no doubt that I was now in control of who touched me when and how.

When I had my own children, I feared for them, and rightly so, not from the older brothers, but from my youngest brother, who, as it turned out, was an even worse abuser than the others. My children were never abused by anyone in my family, but the fear was always there, even if my children weren't. There came a day when I needed to turn to my second oldest brother. The day my exhusband beat the daylights out of me, I needed my brother. Years had gone by since I had lived under the same roof. We had only seen each other when necessity dictated. I relived the fears I had tried to lay to rest. I witnessed the abusiveness that my brother was doling out to his current girlfriend, and I remained strong. Sometimes the only way to prove to yourself that you have grown away from the abuser is to be in the company of the abuser and walk away with all of you, to include your spirit, intact. Tests.

Sadly to say, that brother is now passed on. I spoke at his service; words from the heart and Spirit. I forgave all my abusers, it was the only way I could continue on my journey. Forgiveness is powerful. It frees you to be. Remain strong, Brenda, just go as far as you can without causing yourself harm. It all comes in it's time. May peace be with you as you gain understanding.

Boots: You have already begun. To admit there is a problem is the first step to growing. Number one thing to not do is to get down on yourself. Time, little one, time. Great healer. Work, hard, heartbreaking work. Great strengthener of the soul. As for the right counselor, read some of the other threads for sound suggestions. Also, peruse this site, its full of insightful information. Keep writing. Writing has a way of drawing the shades of the mind and letting in light where once there was none. May you find the peace you seek through understanding. You are not alone.

May 29, 2000
2:20 pm
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Writing certainly does sort things out so you can see them.

My netscape is freezing every other word.

May 29, 2000
2:26 pm
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Brenda
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Thanks for the beautiful words spirit, I am moving at my own pace and yes I have learned to walk away with all of me..and more.
I am sorry for your horrible abuse, thank god mine was never sexual, you are such a strong person and an inspiration, god bless you spirit.

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