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Coda Mom, Can Sew ask you?
April 7, 2005
11:18 am
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sewunique
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Dear CM,

I am not sure I have the right to ask or if you are willing/able to respond, but I am giving it a shot. I will have insurance in threee months and then can get counseling. Until then, I struggle with a question that perhpas you can suggest some ideas? Or anyone who has this experience or has worked with me on my threads back in Nov/Dec; Zinnie, WD, OMW, ready, Willing, mamac, forgive me for not naming you all, but I am lost with this one and trying to figure it out since last June. Si I think I have given it fair and reaonable time to come up with a solution, but I cannot.

You can search the title: "Sew, Now it's time" for what I refer to and it will give you the general gist of my dilemna.

My daughteer hasn't spoke to me, since June except Christmas day and two months ago when I was up there. No touching me at all. I was able to see one grandson ast his wrestling meet and my grandaughter at her science fair and llowed to take her out for ice cream afterwards and then take her home. My little Christopher, my namesake, I did not get to see. I talked to my daughter by phone twice or once since the holiday. Last weekend I tried and called cell and home, after three days, six times (same message on both phones as I always have to get her as they are so 'busy' every nite of the week with at least taking two or three of the kids for some activiety, band, karate, gymnastics.Awanas, etc etc etcetera. No contact back to me.

I do not know what to do. Or what to say should I write a letter? My divorce was final this Tuesday. Either she or a friend are to pick up the rest of my things for me, and I have not idea how to even get these or if I should contact him. I am sure he will not allow my friends in who helped me pack my stuff up for moving last year, so I am guessing he will have my daughter come get it. They are still in good contact.

Any ideas how to get this going? I have never talked to my daughter about the pictures except to ask her if he ever touched her and she said not, except once in the darkroom he went 'goochey goochey ' to her hip. I wonder if they have colluded?

Oh, before I made amends with my very abusive mother, I did not speak to her for ten years. What grave thing have I done here? What sins am I having to repay now ? Have I taught my daughter to treat me the same, God forgive me. I was a very intense mother always protective, but never abused her, now I hear over and over she feels I have abandoned her again. God help me WHERE she ever came up with I abandoned her before? I was the single mom who raised her! She is 34 years Old!

I am sooooo lost with this one.

And those pictures of his? Nwever ever able to bring it up to him or the court and now that is over. I am still holding on to them, for some day whenever I see my daughter and her children again, maybe when I am daead and gone, someone will listen that I had just cause to divorce and my daughter was not right for her picture taing actions as well. Sorry, I know this did not come out smoothly, but it is my best shot today. thanks for any ideas.

Sew uniquely confused

April 7, 2005
11:30 am
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sewunique
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I am hurting so badly with this issue, my heart aches like that of a hurting, loving and confused mother.

And how I hate to open myself up again on these threads like this, but it has helped before, so am giving this one last try.

April 7, 2005
12:40 pm
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sewunique
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bumping up...........

April 7, 2005
1:38 pm
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Hi Sew,

I tried to search for your old thread but I couldn't find it. I assume these pictures are some kind of pornographic stuff. Was it "child porn"?

I'm sorry to ask so many questions but have a real sense that you are struggling and want to be here for you.

Talk to me...

Love you,

Ren'ai

April 7, 2005
1:54 pm
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Yeah, lady,

Was gonna post to you especially, but figured if you were up to it, you'd arrive, so thanks. Go to search threads and type the word "time" and you'll get the threads, mine is "Sew, now it's time".....that I am referencing to. It was before your time so that is why.

One girl may have been 17, just graduated from HS. Or could have already have turned 18. Never found her pics. My daughter too. (pics of herpast nine years and she is 34 now). All I foumd had clothes or negligee. Detectives in on it an can't do anything and dropped it. Best to skim that thread I suggested. My concern is how to reach my daughter's heart again and have never talked about her picture taking. That needs to be addressed, by heer and I, or her to seek counseling, think so?

Have to get to work, now on 3 to 11, so will let you stew and steam when you read it all, or skim as you desire. Will look forward to any replies, short, and to the point. Chuck out the sympathy, that is okay without. I need clinical and no insurance for next three monthe and you know me, the textbooks, knowledge, etc., okay, Ren'ai?? Much appreciated.

Sew

I just do not want to have to rehash it all out here again and some will be triggered or too sensitve. If need be, take it upstairs, K?

April 7, 2005
1:56 pm
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***I need clinical and no insurance for next three monthe and you know me, the textbooks, knowledge, etc., okay, Ren'ai?? Much appreciated.

shoould be:

I need clinical, textbook style infor, etc. I have not insurance as yet for professionals, they aren't always that much help anyway. Sorry, typos, trying to get to work. Thanks

April 7, 2005
2:43 pm
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That's okay, Sew.

I'm gonna search out your old thread now...

Love ya!

Ren'ai

April 7, 2005
3:45 pm
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Okay. It didn't take long for me to get a pretty good feel for what is happening once I looked over your other thread...

First of all, you were/are right on to be rid of this man. He is a pedophile in denial...

The issue of your relationship with your daughter is going to be very complicated. I wish I had something more uplifting to say to you...

Take a deep breath, get focused, and tell yourself that you are going to take in what I'm saying here. Give yourself a minute. Sincerely.

Now, your daughter has a perception. Her perception is her reality. Let this solidify in your mind. Her perception is her reality.

What you have to do it accept her perception. This is hard. You did not abandon her. I understand you're desire to explain to her all the reasons why you did not abandon her.

Imagine, if you will, the typical Alzheimer's patient. You know how it can be. Mrs. Smith heads to the exit every day at 3pm because her children get off the bus at that time and she has to be at the bus stop to meet them. I know you understand the futility of arguing with Mrs. Smith. In order to get Mrs. Smith to comply, you have to accept her reality and then reassure her that someone is already there to meet her children and they will be safely escorted to her room when they get off the bus.

What you are going to have to do with your daughter, if you really want to heal this relationship, identify with her feelings of abandonment. This is the core issue. The pictures are the core issue of your reality, not hers. When she is emotionally mature enough to realize that what her father did was wrong, she will deal with the pictures. If you try to talk to her about them now she will deny that it is an issue, and likely she will use this as an excuse to distance herself and her children from you even more than she has already.

I suggest you practice by writing. You can do it privately, or here--whatever is your preference. Just practice on seeing things from her perspective. You can tell her things like "I didn't mean to abandon you. I did what I thought was best at the time and maybe it was a mistake." She will likely counter with something like "Yeah, you didn't mean to, but you did," to which you could reply, "I understand how you are feeling. What can I do now that might change the way you are feeling?"

It may not be a great idea to try to engage her in a conversation about this right now. She is in a space where she feels really sorry for herself and she wants you to pay the tab with guilt. It sounds like she is looking hard for some kind of emotional restitution that you can't provide.

Putting your thoughts in writing will give you a chance to frame them in a way that can minimize her desire to get defensive.

Let me know what else might help, Sew...

Love,

Ren'ai

April 7, 2005
3:51 pm
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Hey Sew,

Sorry I could not answer you sooner, just got in from work.

I did finally find your old thread and I think that you have every good reason to suspect that your husband may have been involved with child porn or more (do these girls look under the age of 18? my guess is that they are). One of the "modus operandi" of pedophiles is that they like to take pictures of kids, to convince them that they are "beautiful, photogenic, etc., and to convince them that they will use their pictures to enter them in a contest or in a magazine, etc. Unfortunately, their "victims" are usually kids who need adult attention and are eager to comply.

Your divorce is so new, Sew, that my first inclination is to tell you to rest and give yourself time to heal before you attempt to tackle your relationship with your daughter. She sounds angry and very irrational...she would probably lash out at you and play some serious head games.

If you need to make some kind of communication with her, maybe write her a letter, but do not grovel or apologize for anything. You have been thru h*** with this man and she is only looking at the situation from her own point of view. It is my experience that daughters tend to take their dad's side in divorces because they can't stand to see their "big, strong" dad in pain, and it brings out the nurturing, caretaking in them (and yes, they start viewing their mom as the b**** who is causing all of his suffering).

Sew, just step back from the situation for awhile. Take care of yourself and let go of all that is out of your control. Your daughter will come around in time, as she begins to see her dad for who he really is. I have seen this over and over again.

Lean on your faith, your friends and learn to trust your God-given intuition. You are NOT crazy, circumstances have made you think that but it is not true.

Hope this helps a little, my prayers are with you.

((((((((hugs))))))

CM

April 8, 2005
12:01 am
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I think I'm with Ren'ai on this one.

Look, photos of an underage girl in a negligee? Duhhh. It's a no-brainer.You know your husband is a creep. We know he's a creep.

Your daughter doesn't, and she is not going to let you convince her of that. She needs her defense mechanisms, like denial right now. Let her have them--they help her function.

Let her figure it out in her own time, in her own way. Meanwhile, care for yourself, your daughter, and your relationship with her.

April 8, 2005
2:18 am
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I've only just found this - and hope to add my 5 cents worth.

What a dreadful time you have had.... and you have also had such wise and caring help form those who've answered you.

I am in admiration of the way they've laid it out so clearly and sensitivley.

I think that your respondents here are so right.... all the time you push, your daughter, desperate to deny what's happened, will pull away.

Keep the photos safe till one day they may be used to sincerely help her, and maybe her children, too. (Stresses can be handed down).

stay awaw from the subject till she can approach it or better still, can instigate it.

Be caring and a friendly easy-going mum till she can get closer to you to bring these things forward to look at.

It is a pity that you have to be the one to take the strain of all this, yet we mothers, with our greater wisdom and experience, are often the ones who must carry the burden. It isn't for no reason that women are called the stronger sex. We are!

Your daughter, your child, has been wronged by your husband... and perhaps that you feel badly that you could not have intervened and protected her. I don't know... but it would be a natural thing to feel.

Now is the time to protect her by staying away till she is ready.... Co-dependent as it is, you may have to adhere to the keep-the-secret rule that she wants.....

For the moment I would say that was best.... if there must be interventions let them be later when you are not so raw yourself.

I wonder if the abandonment she speaks of is that you didn't intervine to 'save her'? She may be blaming you instead of him... it's pretty common, so I'm told.

Here's an Alternative suggestion:

Mothers and children are very much connected. When the child is in discomfort the mother knows.... there is a telepathinc connection that mothers and children have.

When you are quiet.... relaxed....contemplative..... Imagine you are ringing your daughter and when she answers the call, ask her if you can talk..... then tell her you love her and that you would always have wanted to protect her.... and if she wants protection now from the awful truth, you will do that for her... and it will be safe with you.....

Now you may think that this doesn't work.... but it really truly does.

I have seen it myself... and I have done it myself.... and it has great power with the power of love behind it.

You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain.... you are also practicing talking to her....

Take care....and know that you are doing the best taht you can in a most dreadful situation..... and that the story isn't finished yet......
ladyv

April 8, 2005
11:10 am
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Sew,

Are you alright? A bit concerned not to have heard from you...

Love,

Ren'ai

April 8, 2005
2:23 pm
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I am fine, thanks! I could not respond yesterday as I worked 3 to 11 now so my repsonses will be coming back the next day for anything you guys post in the afternoon or later. And yesterday I just took in all that was written. I tried to absorb it all and to be still in my heart and mind to mull it aroound for awhile, just as all said to. Besides, I am not one to make quick decisions, it takes me awhile!

So I will respond back after I get my first check into the bank to stop thses bills from bouncing. The fun of starting over. Thanks for your responses, will get back later tonite as I am off work for today.

Sew

April 8, 2005
3:23 pm
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I'm glad you're alright!

Tonight I'm going to a hotspring for a soak and a beer (or two) so you might not hear from me until tomorrow or the next day.

I'll keep you in my heart, though...

Love,

Ren'ai

April 8, 2005
10:47 pm
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Sew -

I am sorry for the pain you must be enduring. Double fold for doing the right things (divorcing him, remaining in touch with your daughter) and you daughter still being withdrawn. Have heart, patience, and keep trying. Let her know you love her and will be 'there' for her whenever. It does sound like she is in denial like WD said. No one wants to admit this happens to them... that someone who loves them uses them, hurts them or victimizes them. She will have to heal and deal with these issues in her own time. Forcing something she is not ready for won't help, it may backfire instead. Gentle, sturdy, remaining, constant, love is the key. Stay in contact but give her some space too. We all explore the things we need to study at our own pace. Only she knows how much she can address at any given time... and whether she is ready or not. You have to be strong for you and your loved ones. She knows you love her, but reminders are good too. This is a lot for a child of any age to deal with.

Do you attempt to discuss all this with her each time you see her? Perhaps, if this is what's occuring, a change of subject may help things?

Hang in there, and have faith. If you believe in God, ask for guidance and help. It will be there...

J

April 10, 2005
1:03 am
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I am copying and pasting what I wrote upstairs for down here, so please do not think me rude in answering out of sequence here!

Ladyvirgo,

Thanks for your response as well. Yes, shame is on her side. Am I cruel for saying that as well? I am more angry at my ex for his manipulative ways. I remember my father just recently telling me, (when I told him about the pictures and thinking of divorce), he said that he thought before we married that my ex had been paying unusually alot of attention to my daughter and she was 17 when we married. Now that I look back, I can see all this rather questionable behavior, bu missed it then as nothing ever occurred around me. But another story that is not to tell here.

Sew

_______________________________________
I tried to raise an independent daughter as I could, guess I accomplished that one. She is good about sticking up for herself and speaking up when she should. Add that to her German stubborness and whalla, look what I have.

I am begining to realize she too is codependent, but in a controlling way. I just realized this last year when we flew down here together to see my mother when she was still living. My daughter was afraid of flying. I tried to calm her. It hit me like a ton of bricks when she announced to me that she needs to always be in control. Her fear of flying she said, was that she had to depend on the pilot to fly the plane, not her, and she felt out of control. Wow! Now that is some controlling problem! It was then I realized how much she needed to be alwaays right and to be in charge, in control, just as I have.

What I have read about adult codependents, is that I, as a parent of an adult codependent child, I have to allow her to sort out her own problems in her own way. That is a hard one.

I will be starting to compose some letter writings to her, as this appears to be the only connection I have with her and perhaps her reading my letter and not having to hear my voice will allow her to 'hear' my love and concern for her.

What and how I will say has not come to me as yet. I seem to be lost for words. Ha! Imagine me with no words to write! My heart overflows with love and concern and aches to just to communicate, and yet I feel the many words I have to say are all wrong. So I will have to sort out the feelings and perhaps write and re write until it is acceptable to send. Now that I know what to do, the next step is being able to get it done.

April 10, 2005
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To everyone who posted, I thank you so much, your responses are absolultely great; I knew they would be.

Please excuse me for not responding back quickly as I usually do; I really had to absorb all that was presented here. I am a slow decision maker, but then firm about the decision and usually do not waver from that decision.

The common denominators here are:

1) ex is a schmuck, probably into child porn, if not big time, he will continue to do so and burn his own bridges.

2) on that note, that is why he liked me at an underweight size way back when, as I had the figure of a young teen; that is sicko, or the 12 year olds he teaches; even sicker yet.

3) newly divorced, so take it easy for me and work thru the 5 stages of grieving (and thought I was at stage four, now I see I am back at denial). Hey, I still feel I need to 'ask permission' that I would like to take tennis lessons. And still in wonderment my first paycheck is actually 'mine'. ALL mine, I can actually spend more than my allowance I was given for lunches.

4) cannot, should not, try to convince my daughter what I have gone thru as she would only be angered at my being negative about him

5) my daughter 'needs' her self denial, protection, to deal with this shame and maybe anger herself for this situation she was in and got controlled by him for 17 years as well. (Found out he had been taking pictures of her since her last child was born when he was about two years old, now he is eleven; maybe even longer).

6) this is not an easy situation, nor an easy fix it problem. Whew! Thought codependents could 'fix' everyone's problems, and I realize I can't, nor reasonable to think I can. Sad humour there.

7) my daughter is an adult and I have to allow her to work this out on her own. Really? Not even suggest counseling nor Beattie's book "Codependency No More"???

8) what goes around, comes around, everything comes full circle. Meaning, keep the pictures and some day who knows? He will pay, somehow in some way. (Stil feeling angry on that score with the pictures).

9) Coda Mom, you suggested as well to take some time for myself, relax and to lean on my faith and that is good .

10) ladyvirgo, you shared a technique that I will try to see how it goes for me. I can understand where you are coming from, I think. At least some good meditation whould be helpful. A practice I am interested in, but not used to doing. I know the more you do it, the more in tune you become with it. Juanita, yes, give her space, but reminders to let her know I am here always for her and love her always is a must.

11) Ren'ai and WD, yes about the support to the male figure, I see. And the writing, jurnaling, perhaps poetry will be a good venue for feelings and thoughts.

12) Coda Mom, Ren'ai and WD, thanks for my health care resources, which is what I needed to hear in this response. Ren'ai, the comparision to the Alzhemer's helps to relate to this.
What have I missed? As I stated at the beginning, I will write, but first I need to just absorb all what has transpired in my life and get some things in order here, set up a good living routine and healthier living. I preach it but do not live it, so that is my personal job for me next. Then my mind will work on the rest and when the time is right, hopefully, I can write those letters. For now, a simple card here and there will be the beginning of communication.

Again, I thank all of you for your wonderful responses. You took the time and much heartfelt thought into your words. I am much appreciative for that and each one of you. Perhaps all this will also help someone else who reads the threads as well.

Sewunique

I think I have exhausted this thread!!!!

April 10, 2005
1:47 am
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PS

the idea of abandondment, even as she is an adult is the other thing I will take into consideration, thanks.

April 10, 2005
2:10 am
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sewunique
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Ren'ai,

Could you please explain to me more clearly what you mean here? Maybe a bit dense, but not sure what you mean or how to do this? Thanks,

Sew

"...Putting your thoughts in writing will give you a chance to frame them in a way that can minimize her desire to get defensive. "

April 10, 2005
7:01 am
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Hey sew,

You are such an organized thinker (I can tell you're into nursing šŸ™‚

So glad to hear from you, you sound as if you're "getting the bull by the horns", and I wanted to tell you that I will be praying for you and your relationship with your daughter.

Ren'ai is possibly suggesting a technique called "reframing", where a negative interaction is reframed so that it becomes more positive...e.g., if you and your daughter "get into it" when you speak to one another (because of the emotion, tone of voice, etc.), writing has the advantage of honestly stating why you did what you did without being interrupted, and she may tend to understand better so that she'll not be as defensive.

(is this, in fact, what you meant, Ren'ai??)

Take care, sew, hugs,

CM

April 10, 2005
8:44 am
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Hey Sew

((((((((hugs to you)))))))))
Sorry just got to read the whole thread. Haven't been around much.

You hang in there. It will all come out in the end. I'm glad you love your daughter so much.

šŸ™‚

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