Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

No permission to create posts
sp_TopicIcon
cash for care
March 28, 2001
11:02 am
Avatar
Sal
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Okay. But doesn't she need people in her life, nonetheless? Just not the desperation and fear. How do you decide what is a legitimate need and what is a trouble giving desire? If I hurt so much, due to abandonment, say, and respond with desperate clinginess or with doom and fatalism, shouldn't I address the hurt? Don't I really NEED to address the initial pain/fear? Can I just talk to myself, realize I am an adult, in no immediate danger, able to meet my survival needs, and show myself that I don't have to panic when I am rejected, or assume that everyone will leave eventually. And then can I react to that reality? Is that what you're suggesting? Look at it objectively and respond practically, logically. My fear is that the emotions are too inextricable, and I am too damaged to be trusted to make objective decisions. "When the mind is free of any thought or judgment... then and only then can we know things as they really are." How the heck can we be free of any thought or judgment?

Do I really have nothing left to lose, and yet I'm struggling with every breath to keep what I do not really have? Like a drowning man kicking and fighting, I fear to relax would mean sinking, when actually the opposite is probably true. Why am I so scared to quit kicking and screaming?

March 28, 2001
6:13 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Sal.
"How do you decide what is a legitimate need and what is a trouble giving desire?" An example: When I am hungry, the need for food is obviously a 'real' need. Excessive need for food above that required for the body sustenance is not need but greed based upon emotional cravings for security - that is, past emotional experiences retriggered into the present. For me, introspection with a clear mind, reveals what is a 'real' need and what is just an emotional and/or a contextual memory recalled.

"My fear is that the emotions are too inextricable, and I am too damaged to be trusted to make objective decisions." This may or may not be true. Either way, the status quo is rarely maintained. Everything is transient. We can influence the direction of that change. Each journey towards change starts with the first step.

"..."When the mind is free of any thought or judgment... then and only then can we know things as they really are." How the heck can we be free of any thought or judgment?" Did I say that? Well... it is very difficult to still the conscious mind. Remember that consciousness thought - so the latest research seems to indicate - is only the result of the preponderance of unconscious thoughts bursting through into consciousness. Reducing the unconscious thought intensity would seem to prevent conscious thought. Meditation, right positive thinking etc can still the emotions and quieten the conscious mind by reducing unconscious activity. Still, I don't think that in my lifetime that I will be able to stop all conscious thought. I'm to left brained for that. ;-( However I know that I can improve my ability to 'let go' of thoughts and judgements. I don't reneg on this quote. Did I really say that? Though on reflection, for practical purposes,I would like to slightly modify that statement to:

"..."When the mind is free of CLINGING TO any thought or judgment... then and only then can we IMPROVE ON OUR ABILITY TO know things as they really are."

"Why am I so scared to quit kicking and screaming?" Because you are in a world of illusion, a world that seems to consist of predators and predated upon, a transient world of vulnerability in which you cling to your body and its accoutrements as if they were really 'you'. You naturally fear to stop building and maintaining the psychological fortress that you think you need to defend your survival driven emotional 'self'.

Could you hang over a cliff from a branch that is being gnawed by a rat and since you can do nothing else, pick and savour the taste - not the thought about the taste - of a strawberry growing in a crevice, while a hungry lion awaits below for you to fall? I doubt that I could - but the great masters could. It's called living in the moment with as much concentration on what's happening right now, not on what might happen in the future or what happened in the past, and taking what action that is appropriate.

March 28, 2001
9:50 pm
Avatar
Sal
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I could eat the strawberry, but I'd feel guilty for not paying attention to the danger around me, and doing something that was actually helpful. I would feel like I was being immature and in denial of reality, but, yes, I could see eating the strawberry.(If I had been mindful of the future, I doubt I would have ended up on the branch.)

I tell myself all the time, Oh, you're not really hungry. Or, if you don't eat all that Pavlova right now, you may not live through the night. I don't always drink, just because I'm thirsty. And I often don't let myself HAVE needs(Only transient, illusory emotional ones!) Aren't you saying that a healthy emotional system requires some quieting of the mind? So is that a legitimate need? What about the need to be loved and to love? How do you explain that one away?

March 29, 2001
5:55 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Sal.
Unfortunately, we are all going to end up with 'our branch being gnawed through' one day. No one can avoid death. Unless we can come to terms with hanging 'on the branch'every day and learn to 'savour the strawberries', we will never live life to its full potential. 🙂

"Aren't you saying that a healthy emotional system requires some quieting of the mind?"

Firstly 'emotional systems' have memory - emotional memory. Emotional memory is not the same as a contextual memory of having an emotional experience. Emotional memory is contained in the amygdala in the mid brain. Contextual memory of events is located in the cortex, in the forebrain. This point is significant for understanding the cognition/emotion interactions. Physically, we are at least two people in our own heads!!!! There are exceptions of course. Some neanderthals you meet have only emotions of course. They are usually big, hairy, smell bad and have long arms and no necks. But thank goodness you women love us.:-)

When a negative emotional memory is triggered, we feel an emotional arousal of some form of fear. We then may or may not know what event in the past originally laid down that emotional memory. If we know this we can allay the fear by realising that there is no real threat. If not then we try to rationalise the cause of the fear as being due to some present external threat. This is a major cause of suffering. For example, the Vietnam vet hears a chopper, has a panic attack, realises that emotional memories laid down in Nam have been retriggered, reassures himself, emotions subside. Young girl in first sexual encounter at 16 years of age feels revulsion at being touched by her young lover. She's confused and distraught. She wants her lover, yet can't stand to be touched. She convinces herself that sex is filthy and that he is at fault for expecting her to let him do what he wants to do. The laying down of the contextual memory of her sexual abuse as a child has been inhibited. But the laying down of the associated emorional memory has not been inhibited. Thus, unlike the Vietnam vet, the lack of the associated contextual memory component in her adolescent emotional memory recall, is not there to ameliorate her emotions with her sexual experiences.

Albeit not sexually,many of us have been 'traumatised' as infants wherein no contextual memory laying down was possible. Even though we have at times no contextual memory recall, if we realise where the emotions are coming from,then we can consciously set about reassuring ourselves that all is well in the present. That pavlova is no longer necessary to retrigger the emotional memory of feeling the warmth and love from auntie or mom who perhaps gave us as lollies as children to pacify those tears when we skinned our knees.

Emotional memories are set in concrete. What is healthy or unhealthy is how we respond to their recall. If we try to ignore, repress, suppress, disown or give free reign to negative emotional arousals, we're in for a rough ride. If we act towards ourselves as an IDEAL loving father and mother would in times of our distress, then we will soon feel the arousal subside; presuming of course there is no hungry tiger or lion confronting us.

I'm not putting emotional fear responses down; they guarantee our survival. I talking about alleviating unnecessary suffering due to inappropriate fear responses. I'm on about discriminating real threats from emotional recalls caused by emotional memories of very real threats that happened in the past in infancy, childhood and sometimes in adult life.

So, now to summarise. What I'm saying is that an 'unhealthy' emotional system that contains set of emotional memories "requires some quieting of the mind?" in order to prevent either emotional memory retriggering or to prevent the sustaining of the arousal once activated. Phew!

"So is that a legitimate need?" I prefer not to use legalistic terminology such as the word "legitimate". It implies judgementality. I would prefer to say a need that doesn't bring further suffering when fulfilled is an appropriate need to regard as not requiring scrutiny. Genuine hunger is such a need. Need for pavlova is not usually a hunger need, as described before. Fulfilling the pavlovian need usually results in later suffering; rotting teeth, overweight, loss of self-image, remorse, craving for more etc,etc.

"What about the need to be loved and to love? How do you explain that one away? " Likewise, which one brings suffering and which one happiness and joy? The prayer of Saint Francis of Assisi says something like it's better to comfort rather than to seek to be comforted, to love rather than to seek to be loved. In terms of the emotions and suffering, I'm convinced that he was right. Being loving and nurturing to others has a wonderful effect on our own emotions. On the other hand seeking to be loved, is a big demand on others and highlights the presence of a emotional memory of having experienced feelings of low self-worth, rejection, abandonment and a fear of not surviving as a result of this. Phew again!

Sal, you sure are making my ole brain work overtime. But, it's good for me. It makes me clarify and define my own beliefs and concepts in writing.
Of course, I am ever conscious of my own clay feet!!!!! 🙂

March 29, 2001
6:09 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Sal.

Back again! I'd like to edit this paragraph above and substitute:

So, now to summarise. What I'm saying is that an 'unhealthy' emotional system is one that contains a set of negative emotional memories, some of which are being continually aroused when no real threat is present. Such an "unhealthy" emotional system does "require some quieting of the mind?" in order to prevent either inappropriate negative emotional memory retriggerings by our thoughts or to prevent the sustaining of such arousals by holding on to our negative thoughts about the unpleasant feeling.

That's more like what I wanted to say. Communicating in written words isn't easy. 🙂

March 31, 2001
6:52 pm
Avatar
Sal
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

If there's no way to know the trauma that triggers the emotional response, how do you address the fear? "What am I panicking about? There's no threat, I'm OK." --That doesn't do it for me (though I don't panic, I just sink in despair)

THis is making my brain hurt, and triggering some memory of tramatic text books:) I think the premise of what you say is true and accurate, but there's a piece missing somewhere for me. I dont' think it's as black and white or clinical as your "amygdala" lecture indicates. I think we are born human, with emotional needs, and we adapt our responses to what we experience. I think we have an emotional void that we try to fill with whatever we our past has trained us will fill it, albeit temporarily. I hear you saying that if I act as though that void is not there, then I will not be trying to frantically fill it, being alternately desperate and fulfilled. But I think that void IS there. Big as life. And I feel I am being disingenuous if I don't acknowledge it, and continue my search for what will satisfy this "God-sized" vacuum. So, accepting your way of life is appealing, as having all these needs is very tiring, I can't see this crater of nothing in me, and convince myself that it's an illusion. I wonder if it is.

Out! Out brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player who struts and frets his hour across the stage, and then is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, filled with sound and fury, signifying nothing. ---Shakespeare's Macbeth

Pessimism!!

April 1, 2001
6:07 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Sal.

I can see that you are a dedicated pessimist to the last. 🙂 Been there!

As on old Psych lecturer at uni used to say, "our way of thinking, no matter how dysfunctional for us, is how we have learned to cope with life. It's almost unthinkable for us to want to change to another way that is untried and unproven by us."

The old saying goes, "If it ain't broke don't fix it." Well I say, if your happy being the way you are, don't change.

Best of luck with your pessimism.

April 1, 2001
6:27 pm
Avatar
Sal
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I suppose your prof was right. But I like to think I am wise enough to let go of what is NOT working, and open to trying a new way, if I see the truth in it. On the other hand, I don't want to be a "jumper" from philosophy to theology to psychology and everything in between and combined. I want my convictions to be sure. And I want only truth. Pascal said, there is to much evidence to deny and not enough to be sure. Paradox. I'm working on accepting that, and trying to stop finding a box to hold my view of reality. Perhaps pessimism is part of the process for thinking people. Or feeling people, maybe. It gets compicated when we mix the two. And that, my analytical Aussie, is what life is all about.

...or one of the things life is about....

No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: UTC -8

Most Users Ever Online: 247

Currently Online:
46 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

onedaythiswillpass: 1134

zarathustra: 562

StronginHim77: 453

free: 433

2013ways: 431

curious64: 408

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 49

Members: 109308

Moderators: 5

Admins: 3

Forum Stats:

Groups: 8

Forums: 74

Topics: 38532

Posts: 714177

Newest Members:

poutingDazy, fuhbggbyfDazy, korotkovat2, ctvfDazy, baytxser, muleDazy

Moderators: arochaIB: 1, devadmin: 9, Tincho: 0, Donn Gruta: 0, Germain Palacios: 0

Administrators: admin: 21, ShiningLight: 572, emily430: 29

Copyright © 2019 MH Sub I, LLC. All rights reserved. Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Cookie Policy | Health Disclaimer