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can someone explain narcissitic for me
February 8, 2006
3:24 pm
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toyia
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Hope

Unfortunately, I keep the house perfect, like a model (except my office) however, I can't help that things need repaired or improved-on ocassionally.
That's when he tells me to pay for it!!

Before I was married, my grown nephews would help me SO much, he won't permit it. Of course, he doesn't want them to see what a nothing he is....so now, I have no one to take care of things.
My nephews stay away alot.

We are trophies....so others think how lucky they are. But, what do they do for us??

My friends say, if he won the lottery, I would be the last to know!!!

He would be so afraid, he'd have to share it.

I would only want the money to get my family together for a wonderful vacation, then help schools in poor areas.
He would buy the best private plane, money could buy!
To feed his ego.

The problem is...selfish people do win, they do get ahead..I'm sorry to tell you that, but that's life.

The rest of us, go to counseling and pray we can get out...in one piece!

The N's are basically one person.

February 8, 2006
6:59 pm
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hopeful for change
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Well I guess I do have a choice to stay with someone self absorbed or not..if I stay or go I guess I have to take responsibility for it.

February 9, 2006
9:18 am
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toyia
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>>>>>>>>>>if I stay or go I guess I have to take responsibility for it.>>>>

That is so true!!
I've focused this past year on being ONLY responsible for myself.

And, being more comfortable, accepting what a wife can accept, financially.

I was SO, SO independent, paying everything I needed myself, letting the BOY treat himself....with his big income.

It's so hard to learn to put yourself and your needs first - I fought being that way.
But with an N....there is no other choice.

February 9, 2006
10:16 am
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hopeful for change
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that's what I am working on as well!! My N makes all the money to but neglects things. He thinks his way of showing love is buying things (when he feels real bad) For example: I am a huge dog lover and I work with dogs as my profession. I fell in love with a Mastiff at my work and told him I wanted one. He said no we already have three dogs. I said well someday I will get one, I wanted a specific type and a female.

After he pulled a bunch of crap and stayed out all night, he was trying to suck me back in...he went out and paid $2500.00 for a mastiff for me. When he told me he was doing this I was like I dont need a dog that cost this much, you can get one for $800 which is already way to much. He says no I only buy the best (whoo wee)and came home with a male...that was his "condition". So it still turned out about him (he likes males) Well males get up to 250 pounds or more where the females weigh about 140. But ultimatley he said he was doing something for me spending all this money and really it was about him.

Anyway I love my dog, but really it was for him ya know. When he thinks about giving its giving money...when e does it. I could have used 2500 for a lot of other things that I need.

February 9, 2006
11:19 am
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Hello.

I've been married over 30 yrs to all-you-all's husbands. I mean, every little detail fits and he would and has done exactly the same things.

I need to describe last week's bizarre-ness: during the last year as his (only) sister was ill and dying of cancer, he would often forget to call. He was pleased that their relationship was so loving that he never would ask her how she was feeling, and that they could just talk about the happy childhood days......he seemed to think he did not need (nor did she want) to go visit her another time after the last time, which was ultimately 4 months before she died. Even did not "lend" himself too much to the rest of her family as their only uncle. He claimed he wanted not to intrude on how they needed to handle it as a family unit themselves.

I think he really really really did not want to go and wait the "death watch" he was obliged to go and do when his father died a few yrs ago.

No one seemed to be planning a funeral. So we were not really planning to go (must fly -- too far to drive). What they planned was a cremation and a memorial service later this spring at the family's cemetary in another state. At the last minute, they announced a funeral and my husband decided he needed to go afterall.

Note: now that the stress of her death was over, and it would be a reunion at her wake....and he her only brother and honored as such....

the last-minute (common experience for me) decision to go left incredible pressure on me if I was to go as well. Even bereavemt fares are steep, and I had virtually no time to prepare ..... so I got him ready, and he went.

He called me several times....although we had agreed that this was the best decision under the circumstances, I think he immediately began to acknowledge that I should have been there with him. Only because he probably knew it didn't really look very good on him??

I've tried to anticipate (for him), to do lots of codependent "helpful" things to, honestly, just SAVE himself from himself, but I cannot change who he is.....when a person has always been that narcissistic, I don't think they are able to alter their whole WAY of thinking.

I am reading "Loving What Is" right now. I feel badly for stepping away from him, especially at a time like this, but I KNOW him! Even when he grieves, and I really do love him and feel for him, he does it in an "N" way. Last week I was crying FOR him....and you can't imagine how good it feels to get a grip on this and accept how he is and be able to step back from it.

February 9, 2006
11:37 am
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Oh Hopeful, your story about the male dog reminded me of another instance with my ex-N.

He bought a big touring Harley last summer. The minute he hung up the phone from ordering it, he came to tell me that "I bought this with you in mind, that we'll be able to take long trips." Not quite saying he was buying it FOR me, but almost. Now, in a normal person, that would be so flattering. However, now I look back at that statement from him and realize the pressure he was putting on me to give up everything, my family, my life, my home, including my dog, for him, an "I did this for you, what are you going to do for me?" I think it would kinda be like Bobby Orr buying his wife the most expensive hockey stick ever made for her birthday (with her never asking for such a thing), and saying "Look what I got for your birthday, so we will have something to do together! Here, I'll use it and break it in, okay?" Oy.... I'm so glad I still have my dog, my home, etc.

February 9, 2006
1:45 pm
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May I say "ditto" to all your experiences!!!

Hope.........
It isn't about the dog you want, its about Control!! You are to be happy with what he buys, even if it is a stupid waste of money. (So glad you love the dog).

My N told the counselor he'd buy me a BMW, but I'd return it.
Making himself look generous (he isn't) and me look ungrateful.

I don't want a $50,000 car (he wasn't buying it,it was all talk to impress).

My car was 14 yrs old!!!
I got a $23,000 car, he told me we can take $200 a month from the house account, but I must pay the other $200 for the car payment.

I said: What about the BMW you were going to buy me?
He says......"I meant I would lease it, not buy it."
He covers a lie with a lie.

You can't lease a BMW for $200 a month.

Brynnie........
My N LOVES funerals, he doesn't miss a one. He will dress up and see who he knows, so he can show off his new clothes.
His sister also has a blood cancer - no visit from him, ever!

Whidby.....
My N bought a plane so we could fly together.
I get motion sickness in small planes, so sick.
He won't believe me, saying we don't have anything in common, cause I can't fly in circles in his little plane.
I told him, I'd go up and throw up on him....that got me off the hook.

He LOVES to tell people he owns a plane. If you meet him for 5 min, he will mention his plane - however,
he won't go in debt for a home, or anything else for us.

He's in my home......
Of course most people think he bought it, why wouldn't they?

My counselor will not take an N for a patient. She says there is no cure and she likes to feel some success.

February 9, 2006
6:21 pm
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Hello, how funny your counselor would even SAY that!

Hopeful, our sweet Llwellyn setter was bred with an English, and my N HAD to keep the biggest male of the litter. He has always "loved" dogs -- and I have NEVER gotten to choose ONE! I think the pheasants we get to eat probably cost about $500/lb in hunting expenses.

I hate to think I "resigned" myself to staying with someone so self-centered that he doesn't have a heart/soul. I know his "source" for his own well-being resides in his family ... I have really and truly believed his own intelligence could override his lack of empathy. We've talked about it at length, and I honestly look right into his eyes and think maybe he DOES get it. It's almost like he realizes he is missing something, and he tries to adjust his behavior to show that he IS caring about others, but Damn! it always reveals as another self-inflating motive.

The last few yrs he's been contributing to alot of good causes (more than we could afford). Makes him look good -- he even likes the attention he gets from solicitors, or his employees. He's pretty generous. Gets into trouble sometimes with that -- I want to think he really wants to help people out, but sometimes he's been taken advantage of in the process. Rev's description of her N's belief in his own virtuosity still casts the narcissistic light on this one, I think.

I think I was attracted to him for alot of the same reasons I'm frustrated by him. He did not think like all the other guys I knew -- he was exciting, spontaneous, daring, and charmingly arrogant.

So, as both Toyia and hopeful pointed out, I know I am responsible for my choice of staying. I know I'm accountable. I think I might even have been a trophy for him, but these days he's looking pretty good and even younger women notice him -- you'd be nauseated by how flattered he is by this! I have to let go of that, too. I know his sense of propriety and the risk of losing his sons' respect help keep him from an affair, BUT if he were positive he could do it with no consequences -- who knows?

Garfield and ginger -- the marriage counselor we went to (briefly) saw the denial, deflection, and justification he does pretty quickly. He went until he knew she was not charmed, then began finding fault with her and reasons not to go.

I'm doing the best I can -- I love so many things about my life and I am learning not to let my N's behavior be my responsibility.

February 10, 2006
11:33 am
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revelation
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Just bringing this back up to the top!!

I have a question:

Retaliation for the narcissist: My ex is a cerebral N. Right now he is bust defaming my character all around the area I live in. Do I play him at his own game? I mean, he NEVER had a good word to say about ANYONE when I was with him...and I could hang him...so do I?

His profle will be up on http://www.dontdatehimgirl.com soon.

I tried to forgive, but it didn't make me feel good, so now I've decided on the "don't get mad get even" course of action...anyone got any experience of doing this?

February 10, 2006
12:16 pm
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Brynnie

I've tried to anticipate (for him), to do lots of codependent "helpful" things to, honestly, just SAVE himself from himself, but I cannot change who he is.....when a person has always been that narcissistic, I don't think they are able to alter their whole WAY of thinking.

I am reading "Loving What Is" right now. I feel badly for stepping away from him, especially at a time like this, but I KNOW him! Even when he grieves, and I really do love him and feel for him, he does it in an "N" way. Last week I was crying FOR him....and you can't imagine how good it feels to get a grip on this and accept how he is and be able to step back from it.

This says so much. To save himself from himself. Gosh These words are just amazing for me.

My dad. ohhh

Garfield

February 10, 2006
12:53 pm
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Brynnie

Even when he grieves, and I really do love him and feel for him, he does it in an "N" way.

Brynnie - he does it in a N way.

Oh my G....

My father used to be a elder in our community. His best friend of more than 10 years died of cancer.

My father always sang on weddings. His best friend Boddy (a priest) asked him to sing at his funeral. That was his wish.

My father sang and never shed one tear. After the service he asked members what they thought about his singing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Typical N, on stage, how did I do???

2 years ago I had to learn to have more empathy. I had some but, I must say as the oldest I wished my mother divorced years ago.

Thanks again

Garfield

February 10, 2006
1:45 pm
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Brynnie

Me again, Garfield

I know his sense of propriety and the risk of losing his sons' respect help keep him from an affair, BUT if he were positive he could do it with no consequences -- who knows?

Does your sons know anything about narcissism???

How do you think he as a father figure to them is going to affect them as adults??

Very interested to hear your answer.

Love
Garfield

February 10, 2006
1:53 pm
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Hopeful

Thanks for starting this thread.

Anybody please respond if you can relate to anything I said.

It would be appreciated

Garfield

February 10, 2006
5:22 pm
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hopeful for change
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My now "N" I guess I can call him really just made me mad last night with these traits. My daughter was having problems with communicating with her father, and her step dad the N tells her that..whatever she does if she tries to talk to her dad, don't cry. That makes men mad..that's what he told her.

Then later (although unrelated) he went on to say that if he had a kid that way gay he would never have anything to do with them. I don't know if he says all these things to piss me off or what but it does. I said so much for unconditional love huh? Then I said good thing you don't have any kids of your own...I guess I should have refrained but he makes me so mad. He is so perfect in his eye.

February 10, 2006
7:17 pm
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Hej I'm back.
I guess I think my N is a good father, in that he taught our sons extremely good work ethics and to treat women well. I think they will be good fathers themselves (I did have a little input in this!!) Maybe it's just my biased mother's opinion, but .....

Very early on, their dad taught them to "suck it up", be competetive, they played more than once with a broken finger in football and hockey. Seriously, they are really tough guys -- they are mountain climbers and scuba divers, travel all over, and the 3 of them are in business together. So......they know their dad just like I do I think, and since they grew up with the "Artful Dodger", they pretty much know what to expect. At this point in our lives, however, they have begun to have the upper hand in the business, and there is some strain because their dad is a spender and they are calling him to task on it. They're rather good at calling a duck a duck. No one has to say much about it. I understand what they are up against because I've dealt with his don't-question-me attitude all our married life. The difference is they actually have some influence and leverage and can make him accountable. We'll see how it plays out. I'm not a part of the business, luckily.

Rev, I don't know how you "win" by indulging in the bad-mouthing. My gut-feeling is that you have to have faith that people know who you are and especially who HE is and will make their own evaluations of what he says.

Garfield, I had a friend with a lovely voice who sang at her father's funeral and her voice never wavered. So that doesn't indicate your father was not grieving. But the fishing for compliments is very familiar! And saying you felt some empathy for him now. I think you really have to detach and then that love and kindness is easier to feel towards them. My husband is such a proud man, but a painful back injury took him OUT 3 yrs ago and I saw him in fear and broken for the first time. It's no fun seeing him brought down like that. Who knows, maybe his N qualities actually strengthen everyone around him? Ya think?

And hopeful, I HEAR how frustrating it is for you. We never had a daughter, but I think the family dynamics would have been dramatically different if we had. It would be so heartbreaking to never have contact with a child because you ....... disagreed??

Another thing my N did was have a couple decades of "silence" with an uncle (another N)because of some disagreement.

If we have people over and they have stayed as late as his bedtime, he will excuse himself and go to bed before they leave.

Revelation's explanation about there being varying degrees of N and combos with other problems made a lot of sense to me. Armchair physician that I am, I still know my N is somewhat ADD and pretty alcoholic at times.

February 10, 2006
7:26 pm
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One more thing about the N characteristic in families -- I think my husband's grandfather and his father's eldest brother were both extremely self-centered.

I'm really hoping that tendency has been "diluted" with the next generation!!

February 10, 2006
7:27 pm
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Aha....you see, thats the problem!

Because, yes, my family know me, and some of my friends no me, others, only know what they've heard about me. Feisty, Outspoken....but NOBODY knows him...I can honestly tell you that in his 35 sad years on this earth NOBODY knows who he really is. He dazzles you with the fake persona, its only when he knows he has nothing to lose that the real person comes out. He has friends, but to be honest, they probably know their favourite moviestar better than they know him...he never lets anyone get close...

February 11, 2006
7:39 am
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Brynnie

Thanks for your reply. its wonderful to know your husband and sons are in busines together.

This I cannot say of my N father. My brother took care of him financially up until 3 years ago.

It was just interesting

Thanks
Garfield

February 11, 2006
7:48 am
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Revelations

You said your N is defaming you..

Here is something on the topic

The Smear Campaign of the Abuser

"Criticizing others is a dangerous thing, not so much because you may make mistakes about them, but because you may be revealing the truth about yourself".
Judge Harold Medina

At the end of a relationship with abusers, they begin what Lundy Bancroft has coined the “preemptive strike.” They will hurl accusations, often ‘projection’ at their victim and recruit whatever audience they can fool.

To avoid exposure of his own abusive behaviour, the abuser will begin a smear campaign against his victim. On closer examination, the words of the abuser often reflect his own behaviour.

I think we can all relate to the way our abusers resort to spreading lies, malicious projection, finger-pointing, backstabbing, false rumours by factless innuendo and cruel insinuation and recruiting allies who join the abusers to augment his smear campaign. This rallying of troops to his 'camp', the enablers that work with them, is the well-worn tactic of the personality disordered fending off exposure. His lies and calumny an effective coverup of his own actions.

An abuser will quickly 'devalue and discard' and break off contact, claiming to be the victim of cruelty from us. We are cast in a defensive role by his outburst of lies.

If all else fails, the narcissist recruits friends, colleagues, mates, family members, the authorities, institutions, neighbours - in short, third parties - to do his bidding. He uses these them to cajole, coerce, threaten, stalk, offer, retreat, tempt, convince, harass, communicate and otherwise manipulate his target. He controls these unaware instruments exactly as he plans to control his ultimate prey. He employs the same mechanisms and devices. And he dumps his props unceremoniously when the job is done.
The Spouse / Mate / Partner of the Narcissist - Sam Vaknin
http://samvak.tripod.com/faq6.html

"He never really wanted this commitment, he tells any willing (or buttonholed) listener – and anyhow, the relationship was doomed from the beginning by the egregious excesses and exploits of his wife (or partner or friend or boss)."
The Relief of Being Abandoned by Dr. Sam Vaknin
http://samvak.tripod.com/abuse14.html

The abuser has no understanding of the degree of hurt and emotional devastation he creates. He will never know this pain. However, he will only be able to pull it off temporarily because other people don't understand this first-strike tactic of the mentally disordered. They have no personal experience with it and are unable to recognize it.

His victims may appear to be vindictive in any attempts to disprove his allegations. His recruits see him as the injured party, pitiful and in need of help. Sadly, the abuser will often escalate his smear campaign and the victim becomes subjected to a multi-focused attack. The deceived and gullible recruits take up his cause and work as his ally to attack on his behalf. An abuser willprotect himself, as his naive and gullible recruits willingly do his dirty work.

Defence Strategy: If anyone tries to talk to you about him, hold up your hand (like a stop-sign) and say something like "I don't want to hear anything about him. He's lying" Say no more. If it continues:"My lawyer recommends I warn people they will have to testify where they heard that should this turns into a libel/slander lawsuit. Watch them scatter quickly when hearing this. This can cause people to stop cold and have another look at what they’ve been told. It's not necessary to defend ourselves at all. Some more: Say nothing but burst out with raucous laughter, slap your knee and laugh like crazy. "You should have heard what he said about his x-girlfriend" (x-wife, you, his sister )- you get the idea."

The abuser is now at his summit, and about to topple. This abuser will not engage in a fair fight, and it will ultimately backfire on him. Slowly his newly-recruited allies become aware of the truth. Suspecting his real motives and questioning his actions, they slowly remove themselves and walk away. The ones that hang on are the most dim-witted. Their bad judgement in supporting him is easily transparent. They support the abuser for their own Mephistophelian goals.

The battered emotions of the victims will craft thoughts of revenge, vengeance and justice, but his targets, often reeling from these unexpected cruel lies and alientation, will find little solace in their mentally-constructed retaliation thoughts.

Your abuser has anticipated your cries and pleas of innocense against his cruel lies and expects you to retalilate. He enjoys his victim's role. He basks in the limelight of all that attention he orchestrates. He has set the bait and your strength will come from remaining 'unbaitable' against this onslaught. Hang on tight, it's going to be a very cruel and bumpy ride.

Over the course of time, this abuser’s audience will abandon him. Those he worked hard to secure by portraying the victim have left. His very actions will alienate anyone still near him. They begin to avoid him like the plague as the discrepancy of his lies and actions surfaces.

Ultimately there will be no audience gathered to listen. That is the self-inflicted fate of his own behaviour. Eventually the abuser faces humiliation and exposure and will withdraw into final isolation. Long after we have healed and moved on, this final treachery will forever be the single act that stands out in our thoughts.

Our ultimate victory is the bitter/sweet irony of seeing the abuser portraying himself as the victim as he continues his life-long deeply-ingrained blame-game and his last remaining audience only the walls to hear his lies.

On a funnier note, some 'rebuttal' comments we've heard from our members: "Oh Dear, I wonder if he's off his medication again?" "That's the same thing he said about you!." "I'm not surprised he said that. He said the same thing about his xwife." Suggested Response: "(chuckling with a grinning wink) Do you believe him?" "It is not only false, it is a smear campaign."

Garfield

February 11, 2006
11:14 am
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Wow, Garfield. Some of that is just chilling. Do N's really go to such evil lengths? This thread has really been an eye-opener for me. Thanks, hopeful, for starting it.

February 11, 2006
11:31 am
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revelation
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Wow...I swear Garfield, reading that sent shivers down my spine!

I know EXACTLY what that all means, I am right now experiencing EXACTLY that!

February 11, 2006
11:36 am
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Brynnie

Yes, N's goes to these lenghts. Evil lenghts like you said describes is better.

Revelation

Glad to hear this has helped

((Garfield))

February 11, 2006
4:47 pm
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Garfield you are brilliant!!

When I went AWOL and started abusing my ex with nasty texts and calls.I realised that I was playing right into his hands and all his supplies hands too
No wonder this poor guy is the way he is. Hi ex is a lunatic bunny boiler??? After all he is such a nice sweet guy. Jeez he is better off without her. All their attention was on ME not HIM. He called my sister and aked her how far would I go with this as he called it "campaign of spite" and would I be a threat to his children. He is more of a threat to his children than I am. Asshole?? Ha ha he can talk??
I was so proud of my sister. She said back to him "What are you doing?? that you have had to track me down and call me" Of course he couldn't answer that one. Nice one Sis.

February 11, 2006
4:52 pm
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Liamo
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I have three bottles of Champagne saved for the day the new one sees through him. Remember I was the lunatic.
The only thing is I would want you all to share a toast with me.
We will think of something Eh?
Oh how sweet revenge is??
I know its wrong to want revenge. But I gotta have a little. Pleeeeze!!

February 12, 2006
8:24 am
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garfield9547
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Liamo

Your sister is a star. Not everybody can see throught them. They are different in public than at home.

Please let me know when the landlady caught on.

I would love to share in the champagne.

Garfield

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