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can men and women just be friends?
August 20, 2001
6:24 pm
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Ladeska
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Mel2.....but are you strong enough to stay and take this? Won't that hurt as well? We have such problems being codependent in a situation like this. I am amazed at how bad this is with sooo many people. A security blanket at any cost? WHAT??? What happened to being secure "with yourself"? What happened to - I'm worth it, you lied, I'm not taking it anymore, it's not okay, major offense, if you're going to talk - you better do it quick with actions soon to follow or my action is boot skootin' outa your life, bubba or bubblette?

By the mere fact that we stay in this, second guess our own good sense and radar - (that is usually right on target) - we look like quite the fool to them that equates to - deserving to be hit upside the head again because you didn't get out of the way. And that's exactly what people think, too.

So, it's okay to forgive yourself for having an image of someone that isn't panning out. Expectations, assumptions and illusions happen and reality bites sometimes, too. Take it in the gut and then be proactive "for you". If you don't - no one else will. They will see you as being easily manipulated and "will" do it again to you. It's your call. Is this what eating alot of junk food does to us? Makes our backbone weak or what?

August 20, 2001
6:28 pm
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retard
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Men and Women Can be freinds, real easy!!!

why not?

Can gay guys be freinds with other gay guys, YES!!!!

Just because a chick has breasts and a man thinks with his dick dont mean htey gotta shag duz it???? I mean I have a freind whos a girl, we never EVEr did any serious dating, we just muck around!!! And I will never think of her as anything more I mean it would be like doing my sister!!!!

August 20, 2001
7:12 pm
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ranmar1
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Mel2,
You asked how I got through the first part of all of this. By constantly coming to this site, getting feedback from Alena, Cici, Gingerleigh, Molly and all the other fantastic people here. It sounded hookey at first, people kept saying just keep writing and posting. Well, I started my own little journal, that I try to write in about every two to three days, expressing my feelings and what is going on. This is my own private journal, nobody sees. I review it over and over to see where I've been. It's amazing. I went from denial, to fighting to save the relationship/marriage, to finally realizing, is this the kind of individual I really want to win back? What would I be gaining. Somebody I don't respect anymore, I don't trust anymore, has no integrity and definately has no comittment. After 20 years of knowing her, 15 of them being married, I don't know this person anymore. So now I have to accept her for what she is, not what she was. Now I have to start accepting the fact that I have to be concerned about me and my kids. I've been reading a lot of books lately, the best being The Spriritual Divorce, by Debbie Ford. This one really helped me, and I think could help you too. Try to get to a point where you realize things are what they really are, not what we want them to be. The more we try to make things out to be something they are not, an illusion, the more we get frustrated, fight, and play mind games on ourselves. Mel2, you sound bright, intelligent, and pretty well know the truth. Now it's time to accept it for what it is, and move toward taking care of yourself. Keep posting to us. I know you can move forward from here........Randy

August 20, 2001
8:39 pm
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Cracker
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Okay you guys make some good points regarding "friendship" between dude and chick. As much as I want to deny it to preserve my image as A-hole of the Year, it is absolutely possible to have a friendship between man and broad. But come off it now, I don't care what dude says - no matter how much he denies it, EVERY guy - upon first meeting a chick - will have an internal database (I think it's a chip that's inserted in the groin at birth sometime before, during or after circumsion) that processes a complete analysis of the chick (you know - how hot she is, does she have a big rack, how big is her butt, is she a fake blond, does her nosehair stick out... stuff like that) and then computes and compiles the numbers into a neat little solution: would I or wouldn't I like to do her? .... This happens with EVERY chick we meet throughout our entire lifetime. The chip can't be removed unless the cajones go with it. Otherwise, you're stuck with our shallowness for life, ladies. .....hence, the initial sexual tension that ensues no matter who we meet, what her age, or whether we're married. Dudes just like to "process".... it's a reflex, kinda like drinking beer or surfing with the remote.

August 20, 2001
9:03 pm
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ranmar1
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Hey, Cracker, what's up with this analysis? Since when did you start speaking for the entire male gender? Maybe with a little maturity, you will realize that getting your rocks off isn't the sole purpose in life (maybe for you). Maybe, some guys want to truly have a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, for companionship, intimacy, etc.. To always be on the make is pretty boring after a while, very time consuming, and pretty artificial. I hope you reach a point in life where you find happiness in more than physical jollies. Until then, please do us a favor, don't speak for all of us. Just speak for yourself, okay?
Randy

August 20, 2001
11:14 pm
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Cracker
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...And when I do reach that point in life, Randy, feel free to blow a freaking hole thru my head. (sarcasm).

You mean to tell me that when you see a drop dead gorgeous woman - I mean someone who just blows the drawers off your dresser - you don't feel even the slightest rise in your trousers? Not even the slightest aura of "wooooooah" in your mind? You're either a very disciplined gentleman, Randy, or a freakin liar... I'm just tryin to figure out who's got you by the boys....

August 21, 2001
10:30 am
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ranmar1
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Cracker,
Absolutely, it turns heads. But coming out of a Narcissistic marriage after 15 years, I am also thinking now about if this person is displaying her wares for the attention. Yeah, I'll look, but now, I truly wonder what kind of person she really is. Call it disciplined, cautious, hurt, whatever, but the fact of the matter is, okay, she looks great on the outside. Now what?
Randy

August 21, 2001
11:51 am
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Cracker
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Randy, that's exactly what I meant to say in my initial post. Sorry if it didn't come out as much. It's not like I was suggesting we want to go out and bone every hot chick we meet or see, but rather that we like to scam and check out the honies and then assess whether we'd "yes" or "no" with her. Then after the assessment that takes maybe 2 seconds to contemplate, we're on to other things... did the Yanks win?, did we sign Eric Lindros?, how'd my stocks do today? is my barn door open?... But for that initial two second we check out those betties we're thinking "yes" or "no". That's how i play it, that's how my friends play it... but then maybe it's just a brooklyn deal? Anyway out of respect to you Randy, and every other guy out there for that matter, replace everything above that says "we" with "Cracker". Cracker likes to watch hot betties pass by... Cracker likes to think "yes" or "no".... Cracker likes to think of the Yankees or the Eric Lindros signing right after he checks out the hotties he says "yes" or "no" to in his head.... There, was that okay?

August 21, 2001
12:20 pm
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mel2
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Cracker, you are hilarious. I needed a laugh this morning. But don't you think it's disrespectful to look while you're with your girlfriend, wife, etc? That's another issue I have with him. I understand that men look, but when you're significant other that's just plain rude to do that.

August 21, 2001
1:28 pm
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Diva
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I thought so once, but with my so called "friend", there was always that underlying sexual tension-- but that could probably be just because we had started out "foolin' around", and eventually had sex-- but now I have lost touch with this friend who I always gave more importance to than he gave me, and I hear he's married and my dilemma is whether I should try to contact him or just accept that it's come to an end, but that's hard 'cos we used to have great conversations and I Know he wouldn't deny that so it's difficult to think of it as over.

August 21, 2001
1:48 pm
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Cici
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Diva - accept that it's come to an end. He has moved on with his life, now you must.

August 21, 2001
1:53 pm
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Ladeska
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Mel2 - Men are visual, that's just the way it is. An inborn trait no one is going to change. I think a woman who is confident about herself allows for her man to be a man and look without going off on him. That just makes him want to do it more, right? Men can appreciate beauty or sexuality and not mean - they are going to turn around and cheat on you. And if does mean that - you'll find that out eventually, too. Men hunt, that's just the way it is. A woman that he will keep coming back to is a confident woman that keeps some mystery about herself and doesn't get caught up in this low-self-esteem pattern of living and clinging to a man. If who you are as a woman is because of having a man in your life and whether or not you can keep him, then you will always come up with the shortest straw and they will eventually move on. I try and keep the door open all the time and say - Look, appreciate beautiful women, I am a beautiful woman and if you leave me for someone else - I will still be a beautiful woman that does some "choosing" of her own...

August 21, 2001
2:43 pm
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mel2
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You are soooooo right Ladeska. Thank you. I am a beautiful woman, but my self esteem has been beaten down by myself for so long it's hard to see that sometimes. I've got to get out of this pattern of codependent behavior. I went to a codependents anon meeting last night for the first time. It really opened my eyes. My God am I codependent. I have been to counseling and AA and Al anon, and never really thought I was getting anywhere with it, but this is where it seems I fit. The problems I have. I've been reading Codependent No More by Melodie Beatty and I am blown away at how this fits me. And you guys are really helping me too. I'm glad I came upon this site. Thank you.

August 21, 2001
2:45 pm
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ranmar1
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Hey Cracker, thanks for the reply. You are okay, man.
Randy

August 21, 2001
2:51 pm
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Ladeska
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Glad to hear it Mel. Just don't get too caught up in analysis though. Save time in your life - to live life, too. Sometimes, doing things in a physical way helps the mental and emotional process. Go sky-diving, go hiking, just get up and out of the mental processing, too. Balance.....keep it.

August 21, 2001
3:18 pm
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mel2
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Last night I wasn't around for him at his beckon call and he started calling me last night about 11. I usually put the phone by me when I go to bed so I can get his call, but last night I didn't. He called me 3 times this morning before I went to work and I didn't answer the phone and he called me 3 times while at work. He knows something is up. He asked me to come over to his house for lunch and I told him I was going to walk at lunch. So I went for a walk instead of going over to his house for lunch. Man did that feel good. I feel like I'm getting some of my power back. You're right Ladeska, the physical stuff is really good for the soul. Just put the headphones on and book!!! Feels good!!!

August 21, 2001
4:01 pm
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Ladeska
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Mel2 - and the thing is, too - to not make all this - about him. Make it - about "you" and what you need for you. He'll either respect that or he won't. And, you'll see his actions and then decide in relation to what you want and need and according to what he has exhibited to you.

He's obviously feeling frustrated and maybe a little out of control. What motivates that - would be of extreme interest and value. We give people too much information about us - much too soon. People don't need all that. They just need to be who they are - so we really see - who they are and not who they will project to us because they are trying to temporarily charm us.

But, good rule of thumb as far as doing the mental and emotional work is concerned - also do a corresponding physical act as well. Helps to move things along. Stay in touch with yourself.

It's okay to not jump and run every time the phone rings when someone else "needs" you. Check in with yourself - what are "your" needs for the day? Need down time? Need to be away from all the incoming stuff that people want from you? Then, you have the power and right - to cut it off and owe no one an explanation.

People feel like they own a piece of you because - you gave them permission.

August 21, 2001
4:48 pm
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Cici
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Again, Ladeska is right on the money. I was reading "Escape from Intimacy" -about co-dependency and relationship/romance/sex addiction.

One point the author made right at the end of the book was that the danger nowadays is that people use the label "codependent" to feed and sustain the dependency issues they have. Kind of circular logic, but it makes a certain kind of sense. If you label yourself as codependent, yet still define everything you do in life as "without" the person you feel dependent on, you are still allowing that person to affect your life and judgements to the extreme.

I don't know - it's a really good book. I didn't relate as much to the romance/sex addiction as the relationship addiction part. I recognized the traits within myself because I was a substance abuser, so I could see how I was getting my "fix" through my mate, defining myself by his presence or lack thereof. Just a thought...

August 21, 2001
5:01 pm
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mel2
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Cici,

I do the same thing. I totally lose myself in the relationship and ignore my own life. It happens with every relationship I have ever had. I revolve everything around him and lose myself in the process. I feel like it's a fix for me too. And when I'm not around him I can't do anything for myself. It's weird. But before I met him I was very self sufficient and confident and then I turn into this helpless little girl.

August 21, 2001
5:26 pm
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Cracker
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Mel2, I may be a stupid wop but I'm not a freakin idiot! Why do you think man invented sunglasses? Fact is I've become quite the discreet scammer with my trademark "Multitask-Yes Dear-No Dear-Hey Woah Check Out that Betty" move. I swear I gotta write a freakin book about this and market it. You see, if you're stuck in an area with the ball n chain that has total babe sighting potential - say the Jersey shore, Midtown Manhatty or a Yanks playoff game (ALCS, not the wildcard series) - then you best be on your best behavior but have the dark shades handy. (Helpful tip: I always make sure to test the shades before hand with a flashlight and a mirror to make sure the eyes can't be seen.) That way you can be seemingly looking at your nag the whole time while your eyes are trained on the hottie with the huge rack walkin up 5th. Then I just add a few "hmmm" and "hahs" to my girlfriend's conversation and I'm home free.

Seriously though, we guys - I mean, ME, Cracker... will look but most of the time will not touch. Just some innocent sightseeing is all. And I'm always happy as a clam to join my girlfriend on shopping sprees because as much as I hate it, when I discovered I get to watch women try on sh/t and put makeup on, I gleefully become their sounding board. I always tell them to show more skin. My only real krytonite would be Gwen Stefani... if I saw her I'd say later days to the old lady. Ha ha just kidding... maybe not

August 21, 2001
6:34 pm
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Cracker
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ME... Watch out for me! I may be a crusty old coot, but I'm also a charmer with the broads. Hard to explain the moves, per say, but I exude this kinda "sexual veil" over you with my incredibly boyish looks, my sexy little beer gut and the exuberant sparkle in my eye...... of course, my 9 inch penis doesn't hurt the cause either......

August 22, 2001
12:03 pm
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ranmar1
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Cici, who is the author of the book you mentioned? I would like to read that one. Hey Cracker, got to give you credit, you don't hold back what you think!!!!!!!
Randy

August 22, 2001
1:12 pm
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gingerleigh
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Hey Cracker, I thought you said it was 8" last time. What happened?

And something that no one has really mentioned here yet as far as I read is that gals do the same thing. Or some do. Or maybe it's just me. I look discretely for a moment, then it's over. No touch. We're all human. But never in my life have I said to my companion "Wow, what a butt on that one, maybe you should work out more so you look like that."

*grin*

August 22, 2001
2:15 pm
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Cracker
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Gingerleigh... sounds like you mighta lopped an inch off of me and given it to Hunt, cuz I never said "8". I'd go and re-measure for ya right now but feeding time ain't until later today and I gotta rest up. That old lady may be a nag but she's a freakin Sabercat in the sack

You bring up a good point about the broads checkin out men. Glad you brought that up. It's a little known fact that women are actually a helluva lot worse than the guys when they get together. We might have our pros-cons debate about the huge racks, the big butts, and her "real" hair color... but the broads??-- oh man, I can't even type the stuff you guys talk about! I couldn't believe the language that fell upon my virgin ears.

August 22, 2001
2:51 pm
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mel2
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Yeah you're right GL. I check it out, but just like listen said.... look, then where's my man? I don't comment about unless I'm with other women, but I would never say anything in front of him. That's rude. And Cracker we get down to the nitty gritty when we talk about sex. It's awesome. My friends and I say, How do you do this and what then and so on....How else do you think we know how to do BJs?

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