Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_TopicIcon
Blaming the Victim: Domestic Violence and the Codependency Model
February 8, 2007
11:57 pm
Avatar
bevdee
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 259
Member Since:
September 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Free

I would be interested in your take on this -

"But there was a song and dance to the whole dv cycle."

I know there was for me.

Talk to you later, I need to get myself to bed.

February 9, 2007
12:47 am
Avatar
Slowly Learning
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Lolli, WOW, YES, I'M RIGHT BESIDE YOU ON THIS ONE... YOU ARE SOOOOO RIGHT!!!!

I'd like to repeat everything that Lollipop3 has said.. GO GIRL!

Other than that.. reading through the posts tonight.. looks like a lot of edgey people.. full moon? Anyway, I apologize to WD for what i said and hope you haven't taken offence.

Nite all!

February 9, 2007
2:06 am
Avatar
Worried_Dad
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 43
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi SlowlyLearning,

Ummm...I don't recall what you said that was offensive...so...no problemo.

February 9, 2007
7:29 am
Avatar
lollipop3
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

(((Slowly Learning)))

Responsible for our choices?

Accountable (to ourselves) for our choices?

Acceptance of our choices?

Still trying to find the right word.......

February 9, 2007
8:23 am
Avatar
Anonymous
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Matteo,

I am so glad to see this thread because I think there is a lot of confusion out there. I hate the word victim....I really prefer how in "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" Patricia Evans refers to the abusee as the "partner" of the abuser.

Anyway, I was asked if I felt like a victim when I first came here a couple weeks in. I didn't want to answer "yes" because who wants to be in the victim role...like you put your own self there!

You chose the victim role..etc.

Wait a minute forget the victim role stuff...if my husband slams a door on my shoulder, am I a victim?

Yes. In all fairness yes...I have been the victim of abuse. That doesn't make me a bad naughty little person who isn't admitting her codependence.

I don't have to stay in that label...victim...but I got hurt I was acted upon whether or not I was codependent or not.

I do think I am codependent, but these issues are completely separate. Having some one hurt you does not make you codependent.

If you read in "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" the partners who are being abused want a relationship with shared personal power and love, but often don't have the self esteem to notice when unacceptable behavior starts.

Not having good self esteem doesn't make you codependent...nor does being abused...etc.

These I think are completely separate issues.

When a woman arranges the tomatoes and carrots in a salad specifically to a mans tastes out of fear of being abused and wanting to keep herself safe then this is a COMPLETELY separate issue than codependence.

If she is doing this in trying to guess his needs be for he has them or because she thinks she needs to take care of him because it is her job and she wants to control and make sure he doesn't have to do things he "isn't capable of" then that sounds more like codependence.

Slapping a codependent label on a woman in an abusive relationship is just plain stupid in my opinion. The motives are really different...doing things out of fear and trying to maintain safety is very different than caretaking the crap out of everyone because you are trying to take it all on yourself.

If you are codependent and abused...oh brother...I am so sorry....this sucks...believe me I know.

Even when the abuse stops and I have my husband in another bedroom, I have these compulsive urges to make sure he is doing his life the way I think it should be done...I just gotta flush that toilet for him like he can't do it himself.

I think it is a lot harder to leave if you have a codependent connection with an abuser. My need to caretake is overwhelming sometimes...I don't think that another woman ju on this site was codependent...or at least as much as me. She finally understood she wasn't causing the abuse and that it wasn't ok and bam...she planned it and left.

Thanks again for this post.

February 9, 2007
9:07 am
Avatar
bevdee
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 259
Member Since:
September 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Do you think having codependent traits might- give a person a ... predilection towards in an abusive partner? Subconsciously?

Or staying in one consciously?

Or accepting a victim mentality long after the necessity for it is over?

Because it is one way to project outside of ourselves- and never look inside.

It did for me. I don't believe I am unique.

It wasn't as hard to get out of the abuse as it was for me to shed the thinking that I acquired afterward.

Don't get me wrong - the fear of the abuse, and all that it could escalate into paralysed my rational thought. Wore me down. Made it worse. At first, my lucid thoughts were directed at pleasing him and trying to avert the danger that was always there. Directed at making the honeymoon phase so great for him, creating such good memories, he would never want to hit me again.

Then I directed my energy at trying to understand him.

I can't remember if this was to understand him so I could help him, or help myself understand him and possibly save my life. I would say a little of both, because for the first 3 years, I wanted that "love" to be there. I was loathe to give that up. But there is no set formula with anyone - he as the X factor. I could almost predict his rage cyclle, but I never let my guard down for the random-ness of him. I ain't no mind-reader.

The last year was just spent planning an escape that would not involve and possibly harm my family members in the process. I have never been so sneaky in my life.

I spent years afterward trying to understand him, and the cycle of abuse. Sometimes I wish I had just gotten on with my healing, but I guess everything happens for a reason. I don't know.

Afterward I would get so angry when I would hear statements like "well you musta like it or you wouldna stayed in it so long" No- I hated it and I wanted to change it (him) but it is so much more complex than that. (my anger, my need to control that situation,my need to "help" a sick motherf**er, etc)

After I was out - when I would hear drivel like that - to deflect the criticism I thought was directed at me,criticism I could not face in myself, I deflected it right back to my abuser.

IT WAS NOT MY FAULT. None of it, not one single part of it. There was no culpability that I would accept because it was just too damned painful. By staying and accepting the beatings, I had accepted his "blame" and his fear for his illness for too long, and I was done with that.

But embracing pain, lying down with painful righteousness - hurts. It took a toll on my health. I had to push forward, and it is difficult to do that. Sometimes that blanket of pain still feels ok to me, because, even with the tatters and little holes in it, it feels...comfortable sometimes. When I feel that warm blanket settle around my shoulders, I have to shrug it off.

I would rather be cold.

Bevdee

February 9, 2007
9:15 am
Avatar
bevdee
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 259
Member Since:
September 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Ah, but this is all in retrospect. I would still tell anyone standing in a building about to implode - GET OUT. You can't study the science of implosion if you stay in the building.

February 9, 2007
11:37 am
Avatar
Matteo
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

“Feel free to stop repeating yourself. I know I'm going to.” I don’t appreciate this condescending remark. I don’t need your permission to do anything. If you are unable to address me with respect, than please don’t address me at all.

“Let's just agree to disagree shall we?” I am putting out my opinions and ideas for whoever is interested to read and think about it; this thread is not about you being able to agree or not agree to what has been said here, it is about discussing how hurtful and inappropriate the codependency model is for women in violent relationships. It is not my concern if you agree with my opinions or not.

February 9, 2007
11:39 am
Avatar
Matteo
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

My previous thread was addressed to lollipoop 3

February 9, 2007
11:55 am
Avatar
Matteo
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

free ~

Thank you for your post. What you experienced in therapy is empowerment. Empowerment is about showing people choices they might take and the options they have and respecting whatever they will do with them in their lives. It is about respect for another human being and acceptance of their choices even if we think that they are not the best. Abused women go back to their abusers, children who are victims of incest go back to their father's homes after reaching adulthood after being removed from their homes as children. That doesn't mean that they should be looked at with contempt because they failed as codependents, but should be looked at as an example how powerful are the mechanisms which affect abused person.

There is a big difference between empowering and not "enabling", and the respect for the victim or survivor and the choices they make, luck of judgment and no label of mental or emotional inferiority are some of the most important ones.

February 9, 2007
12:07 pm
Avatar
gracenotes
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

How do you define Co-dependence? How do you define Self-Esteem? I am simply posting this here because these are somewhat abstract words. I prefer Mellody Beatty's terms and approach, you may have a different viewpoint.

Here's her definitions of CoDependency:

Core Symptom 1: Difficulty Experiencing Appropriate Levels of Self-Esteem (Healthy Self-Esteem in the internal experience of one's own preciousness and value as a person.)

Core Symptom 2: Difficulty Setting Functional Boundaries

Core Symptom 3: Difficulty Owning Our Own Reality

Core Symptom 4: Difficulty Acknowledging and Meeting Own Own Needs and Wants and Being Interdependent With Others

Core Symptom 5: Difficulty Experiencing and Expressing Our Reality Moderately

This her HER take on co-dependency and I have found all of this to be mostly true for myself. I am simply posting this because a lot of terms are being used here and I really suspect that our own individual perception of the meaning of the terms may be quite different among everyone here. Domestic Violence is not even a topic addressed in her book Facing Codependence.

February 9, 2007
12:21 pm
Avatar
gracenotes
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

By working on these core symptoms, I am so much more empowered as a person and do not at all feel like a victim anymore.

I don't really know what the Domestic Violence model is, but whatever it is, I suspect it is based on adressing the needs of those living in a state of fear for their life, addressing what Maslow defined as the most basic of human needs -- the need for safety -- Someone in a constant state of fear and fright is being denied their most basic needs and need real real world solutions. Codependency is a different thing, on a different level of need. I just had to post again as this thread is kind of getting me going about a lot of my ideas about things.

February 9, 2007
12:21 pm
Avatar
Matteo
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

artist girl ~
Thank you for your post. You understand very well what I am talking about and you put it perfectly in those sentences:

“When a woman arranges the tomatoes and carrots in a salad specifically to a mans tastes out of fear of being abused and wanting to keep herself safe then this is a COMPLETELY separate issue than codependence.

If she is doing this in trying to guess his needs be for he has them or because she thinks she needs to take care of him because it is her job and she wants to control and make sure he doesn't have to do things he "isn't capable of" then that sounds more like codependence.”

They are very different mechanisms operating in violent abusive relationship than codependency which by any means ought not to be ignored. This is the elephant in the room I am talking about which those who favor the codependency model pretend not to see.

Perhaps some women were codependent before they were abused, but many are not. Perhaps some women are abused and codependent, but many are just abused. Perhaps some who escaped the abusive relationship will be codependent in their next relationships because of the affect the abuse had on them, others might not.

That still doesn’t allow to dismiss and ignore the main tactics of power and control which take place in violent intimate relationships and the affect on the victims and survivors, and, as a result, their behaviour and choices they make - which are, unlike the alleged codependency, the main reason and in many cases the only reason for assaulted women’s behaviour.

You are right, artist girl – all those who escaped violent intimate relationships are survivors, and so are those who are still in those abusive violent relationships and are still alive. Victims are those who’s lives had been taken away from their violent partners.

February 9, 2007
12:23 pm
Avatar
Matteo
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

who’s lives had been taken away from by their violent partners.

February 9, 2007
12:35 pm
Avatar
Matteo
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

gracenotes ~ "Someone in a constant state of fear and fright is being denied their most basic needs and need real real world solutions. Codependency is a different thing, on a different level of need." You've got it! Thank you for your posts.

February 9, 2007
1:07 pm
Avatar
lollipop3
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Matteo,

You are talking about ME being condescending???? Wow...is all I have to say about that.

I have found the tone of many of your posts here and in the past to be condescending at best, and at times, down right confrontational. Perhaps you should take at look at some of your posts...here and elsewhere before you start judging mine.

My suggestion....take your own inventory and leave mine to me.

February 9, 2007
1:24 pm
Avatar
lollipop3
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Matteo,

You said: "It is not my concern if you agree with my opinions or not.'

I apologize if I misread you....it appeared to me that you were making quite the effort to prove me wrong and agree with you.

As far as the "you can stop repeating yourself" remark.....

That was in response to your very "condescending" comment that you were "tired of repeating yourself." As well as your extremely condescending remarks regarding the posts made between Bevdee and I.

And look we do agree something...I too think that there is no longer a need to address each other in the future.

Have a great day.

February 9, 2007
1:57 pm
Avatar
garfield9547
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Worried_Dad

After reading your responses I once again realised that you still do not take responsibility for what happened to you.

As if you had NO choice. I disagree as you know. Did not have time to respond to you on the other thread as I would of liked to.

Here is your response on Rev's thread

Hi Garfield,
Studying "what it is about you" that helped you get involved in an abusive relationship is kind of like studying what it was about you that helped you get hit by lightning, or eat some bad chicken at a restaurant, or suddenly find yourself on the losing side of the most expensive war since WW-II.

You don't have to have "low self esteem" for example. That certainly was never the case for me.

Abusive relationships typically have a seduction phase where everything seems fine.

Imagine you are at a dinner party and someone slips a date rape drug into your drink. Next thing you know you are in an ER. The last thing you need is the ER nurse asking you "have you ever thought about what is *wrong with you that you would get into this situation?*"

Why does anyone get involved in ANY relationship?
Well, that is why people get involved in abusive relationships. The drives and desires and motives that lead a person to get involved in a normal, healthy relationship are the same as the ones that attract them into abusive relationships. "

If I get hit by lightning Worried_Dad this is out of my control the same with if somebody puts a date rape drug in my drink. Out of my control.

This is how you see yourself. As if you did not have a choice and i disagree here.

The drives of healthy emotional peopla are not the same as the ones for unhealthy one. once again i have to disagree.

I know you talked about that terrible relationship of yours when you were only 17 and being seduced and abused by your 38 year old teacher. i think you said you were in that relationship for 11 years. I felt broken reading this. But I also realised that you cannot say you had no choice. Get me on what i am trying to say to you.

Garfield

February 9, 2007
4:19 pm
Avatar
Matteo
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

lollipop3 ~

Please don’t tell me that you are sorry when you are not; you are being sarcastic and that’s different than being sorry.

Yes, you are right, you misread me. I addressed you only because you’ve asked me a question. And yes, I am getting tired of repeating myself because we are talking about two different things, which might or might not happen simultaneously. We are talking about two different issues, but you just refuse to hear it, and it is tiring repeating the same point all over again; nothing condescending about that.

If you found any of my posts condescending, than you should have addressed that, not use as an excuse to be condescending to me. I don’t think I was condescending; I was sarcastic, but not condescending; all what I did is I paraphrased what you’ve said earlier, nothing else. If disagreeing with your opinion is confrontational, so be it; however if you have some real concerns about my posting – then voice them instead of accusing me of something only you know about.

Have a nice day yourself.

February 9, 2007
4:35 pm
Avatar
bevdee
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 259
Member Since:
September 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I am very appreciative of this thread and all the viewpoints expressed here. Reading all of them has cause me to think about responsibility and blame again.

My understanding is that blame means fault and -

responsibility means (moral legal or mental) accountability.

The responsibility I claim now is that responsibility to myself that I negated each time I chose to postpone the decision to remove myself from the abuse.

I did not deserve to be beaten for that choice. But - in staying, I was always aware of the possibility of a recurrence. He was not interested in changing himself. I negated personal responsibility for various reasons.

I quit blaming myself when I became aware of responsibility. Sometimes I still blame him….

Thanks! Bevdee

February 9, 2007
9:48 pm
Avatar
free
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 433
Member Since:
September 27, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

(((Lolli))

before you type to Matteo: deep breath.

I've thought my head was gonna explode before.

hugs

free

February 10, 2007
9:05 am
Avatar
lollipop3
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi Free,

Thank you for that.

No worries though, when I wrote my last post regarding that issue...it was just that...my last post.

However, I do feel strongly about the point I was trying to make and I'm glad that survivors, such as yourself, were able to make the changes necessary to save their own lives. I would like to talk about that more, maybe sometime in the future.

Hugs back attcha...(((Free)))

Love,
Lolli

February 10, 2007
9:07 am
Avatar
bevdee
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 259
Member Since:
September 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Lolli,

"I would like to talk about that more, maybe sometime in the future."

When you are ready, I'll talk with you about that.

February 10, 2007
9:09 am
Avatar
lollipop3
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thanks (((Bevdee)))

Forum Timezone: UTC -8
Most Users Ever Online: 349
Currently Online:
22
Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
onedaythiswillpass: 1134
zarathustra: 562
StronginHim77: 453
free: 433
2013ways: 431
curious64: 408
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 49
Members: 110976
Moderators: 5
Admins: 3
Forum Stats:
Groups: 8
Forums: 74
Topics: 38561
Posts: 714257
Newest Members:
nina1985, February, lisabaker, robertwalker, Why.., Why.
Moderators: arochaIB: 1, devadmin: 9, Tincho: 0, Donn Gruta: 0, Germain Palacios: 0
Administrators: admin: 21, ShiningLight: 572, emily430: 29

Copyright © 2020 MH Sub I, LLC. All rights reserved.
Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Cookie Policy | Health Disclaimer | Do Not Sell My Personal Information