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Biggest mistake of my life
August 1, 2003
11:51 pm
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Thanks for your help friends.

I will be contacting his former case worker over the weekend (she was kind enough to give me her home phone number), to see what more can be done.

Yes, NM does have the sex offender registry, which leads me to the issue of my daughter. This is a very interesting situation, so bear with me here.

My first husband passed away not long after we were married. He had been married previously and had five children. He had cheated on his first wife, and although they tried to work things out they both deemed it was not possible, and they divorced, believe it or not very amicably. When he and I first got together, his first wife and I became friends, and I have to say after hearing all of the horror stories of blended families out there I'm so happy with the way things worked out between the three of us. They both took the stance that should I ever have need to discipline the kids, it was the same as if either of the natural parents were doing so, and I was backed to the hilt, and whatever they told their kids, I backed as well too.

Sadly, my first husband passed away, but we all got through it together. Believe it or not his ex-wife and I leaned on each other for support and for the support of the children. After his death, she moved back to Montreal where she was originally from. She had a relationship about beginning about 11 years ago, which resulted in an unplanned pregnancy. The father of this child told her "either have an abortion, or do not ever contact me again." Well, she did not contact him again, and when the baby was born, she gave her the same name as the other children - which was also still her legal last name.

When the baby was born, well to me, she was another family member simple as that. I remarried 13 years ago, and my husband accepted all of these "additional" family members, no questions asked. Told ya I was a lucky gal in that respect.

She is having some other family problems right now, so to help her out we agreed that her daughter could spend the summer here with us in the U.S. All of this is leading some where, I promise!

When all of this with my cousin first started, after about six or seven months as someone here mentioned, he pulled the suicide threat. You know, he was so down, needed support etc. So, I went to work and asked friends and family to write to him and offer him support, as at that time I felt he was being wrongly accused. So my first husband's ex-wife (got that?), who I consider now like a sister was kind enough to write.

Now after two years of folks writing to him, and NEVER once answering, remember our line here on how selfish he was? Well, guess who he decides to write? The woman who is not married, unattached, WITH a nine year old little girl.

Then, when he found out she was here for the summer, he took it upon himself to write to our little girl.

What does this tell me? Lots.

As part of the sentence that the Judge passed down, yes, upon release he will have to register as a sex offender, and he is not to have any contact with any child under the age of 18.

Gut feeling after I read these letters that he sent to my daughter and her natural mother? He is hoping for the "hook-up" and to rabbit to Canada, where they do not have sex offender registry's at this point.

Fortunately, all the people that wrote to him, sent their cards and letters to me, and I sent them on to him, so he does not have any addresses.

When my daughter's natural Mother returns from her trip in a few weeks, she and I as well as my husband will sit down for a long talk over all of this. Most important to us of course is keeping the kids safe.

You know today, another incident happened. To show what a "normal" person's reaction is. My husband is one of those strange people that excercise! I cheer him on from the ice cream stand! Anyway, today while he was out jogging, he ran past some girls in their front yard who he thought looked to be about 10 or so. They started yelling out at him "hey, we want your body!" Well, he went back and asked them where their parents were. He then went and knocked on the front door, and said "you know, I'm not trying to tell you how to raise your children, but... this is what they were yelling, and for crying out loud I'm old enough to be their Grandfather."

Now to me, that is a normal reaction. What scares me is that someone the likes of my cousin would have said "well, it was consenual, they wanted it." Scares the stuffin' out of me.

Evi, I would like to know more about the sex offender assessment board if you don't mind. This man has real problems, and they must be addressed. I am not trying to do this out of spite or meanness, but out of true concern for others in society.

Arwen, he is in Los Lunas if that helps or gives you an idea of any more that I can do, or who I can contact. It is south of Albuquerque.

Additionally, Arwen, if you would like to share your story with you, I will gladly listen. I am learning so much through this. Not only about this horrible reality of our society, but myself as well.

Arwen, like you it took some time to realize "abuse and rape" - although I don't know if that is exactly what you did not realize until later in life.

As I had said earlier, I had a relationship early on, in my early 20's that I knew left me very unhappy. It is only now that I have come to realize that the sexual experiences that I had with this person were not one's borne of love or even pleasure or like. For him they were about domination, causing pain and humilating me. Looking back, I realize that the more he hurt me, the more he enjoyed it.

Arwen, if you don't mind me asking, and if you do, just say so. But, do you think that by you suffering abuse as you did is why you are attracted to same sex partners as well? I ask this because after he and I parted ways, I was afraid of ever being with another man again. I remember thinking "women are gentle, and that is not a bad thing."

However, as previously mentioned, the next man I dated, and then moved into a sexual relationship with, was a sweet person through and through, and was patient, kind and gentle when our relationship moved into the sexual area. Through him, I feel that I was able to move on to other healthy relationships, although he and I parted of the ways. I have since been lucky in that both of the men that I married have also been concerned for my likes and comfort in all areas of our relationships.

I hope you don't mind me asking, just wondering.

Friends, thank you for your input, insight, support and help. I cannot believe that all of you have been so understanding and kind.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Love,
Zinnie

August 2, 2003
4:22 am
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Each state is different with their sex assessment, in our state (Arkansas)when it comes time for an offender to assessed (or evaluated) this board gathers all the evidence and reports concerning the crime and any additional information they can get their hands on.

They evaluate the classes that the offender took while in then pen; most prisons have a sexual type class that molesters must take. In this class they have to addmit to all that they have done and take full resposiblilty for thier actions. If they do not this raises thier level. At this board, the offender is screened by psychiatrists (spelling sucks sorry), and other trained people (not just one). They talk about victims that were never reported etc. Medical exams and other types of evaluations are done too.

They go over medication, drug and alcohol use etc. They assess what triggers and escalates their ablility to re offend not to mention the enviornment. Limitations are warnings are then put into a report along with a full discription of disclosure. This then puts the offender in catagories level one, two, three and four. Four being the highest and most likely to re-offend.

This along with the details helps law enforcement keep tabs on the offender and (God forbid) should the offender re-offend the simularities in the cases help with credibilty for the victim.

I have the name and number for the director in the state of Arkansas if you would like more details. She could explain this process better than I and may be able to answer questions better than I. I hope this was some help. Remember some states do not have this and have law enforement rank the offenders.

Arwen-----if I have not offended you I too would be very interrested in your story. I would love to help, or just listen. It sounds as though you have done alot already in life to better yourself and help others, you seem to be worth knowing.

Please let me know if I seem to over step my boundies, this is an area I have great compassion for and would not want to cause any problems for anyone. I learn something new every day and just want to return some knowledge to those who have helped me. I have gained so much from being on line with all of you. You have given me cause in a difficult time in my life. For this I thank you.

respectfully,
evi

August 2, 2003
6:27 am
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Alrighty, then...

First, before I forget, I don't connect my sexuality with the abuse. For me, it was part of a huge spiritual growth spurt. I simply came to believe that a soul is a soul. Some souls live in female bodies, some souls live in male bodies. To me, that no longer means anything. When I find myself attracted to a person it's because of what's between their ears--intellect, emotional integrity and maturity--that sort of thing. I figure if I get to know a person in a way that is sexually attractive to me and the other person, I can function skillfully no matter what they have below the waist.

Okay. To make this clear I kinda have to explain our birth order. First there's my oldest sister, 6 years older than me. Then another sister who's 5 years older than me. Then another sister who is 3 years older than me. This gap of time between pregnancies was due to my mom's diaphragm--but I'm not shitting you when I say that she and my dad got a bit over heated ONCE, didn't use the diaphragm, so here I am. Then I have a cousin/brother who lived with since he was 5, and he is only 4 months older than me. Then there's my younger brother--just 13 months younger than I am.

When I was about 3 years old, my sister closest to me in age began talking to me about things that my oldest sister would make her do at night. She she would show me things, and to me, it seemed very natural, I guess because of the closeness in our ages. Also, she did not present with the kinds of characteristics that sexual abusers present. She was never coersive, manipulative, threatening, or even tried to bribe me. To her, when she and I engaged in this sex play, it was like a game. I also think it was like a release, and relief that filled her with hope that maybe what was happening to her wasn't "bad". I feel like she maintained a certain level of innocense in our sexual play.

However, years later when we had both grown into adulthood she and I began to talk about what happened with our older sister. You see, as time went on, my older sister began to sexually abuse not only this one sister, but me and my little brother as well. In the past, she tried to justify her actions by saying it was only "child's play" and it was a natural process. However I pointed out to her that natural play doesn't carry with it some of the things she did to us younger kids. She would threaten to tell and get us in trouble. She would promise my sister a gift if she would comply, and then refuse to give her the gift further stating "What are you going to do? Tell on me? Then Mom and Dad are going to know what you did!"

She convinced me to touch her inside her vagina, she had us watch as she inserted things into her vagina. She tried to get my little brother to have intercourse with her but he was so young he didn't understand what she wanted him to do and she got very angry with him. All this went on from the time I was 3 or 4, until I was about 7 or 8 years old.

I went to years ago and addressed this issue along with the issue around the incident of sexual abuse with my cousin. But lately, some other repressed realizations have surfaced from the inner depths of my memory.

In my early teens I had to share a room with her periodically. She would be under her covers with the lights on, pretending to be having a "blah-blah-blah" conversation with me, or sometimes with my little brother and I would see her hand moving between her legs. She would masturbate while we were present. Sometimes in the middle of the night I would hear her talking to our dog, who slept with her every night, in a cooing, seductive manner, and I would hear sounds that I still try to forget to this day. This dog was a female, by the way.

Her pattern of masturbating in my presence has continued on throughout our relationship but for some reason I only comprehended it in the last few months. I started to recognize that most of the time if she invited me over to watch TV or something (I don't have TV cuz my son says it 'makes you fat and lazy'). Right before I had my really bad breakdown, like about the end of May, beginning of June, I was at her house and my niece was there. This niece is the daughter of my sister who was also sexually abused. My oldest sister was looking for the remote control, wearing a short nightgown and she is a big woman like me. She wasn't wearing any underwear and my niece got an eye-full when my sister bent over, and my niece made a remark like "That's gross!" So, my sister picks up her nightgown a couple of times in front of me, my daughter, and my niece and says "I'm to the point where if you see me naked, you see me naked and I don't care." It made my skin crawl because I could read the fine print between the lines.

Later the girls retire to a back room to watch TV and my sister stays in the living room with me to watch a show that was a re-run which she'd already seen. While I was watching the show she started to masturbate. I felt frozen. I felt like that scared, fucked up little kid all over again. And then I said to myself "Fuck that! I'm not going to give her a clue that she is having any effect on me. Instead of staying nervous and terrified, I took control of how I felt about what she was doing and disconnected it from me. I figured if she didn't get the payoff of knowing that I felt abused by her behavior, it might make her understand that I'm not her victim anymore.

Something else I decided after I had ample time to think on this, is that if she EVER pulls that shit with me again I'm going to get up, look right into her eyes, and say "What the fuck do you think you're doing? For god's sake, if you want to whack off, go to your fucking room you sick fuck." I'm not just going to sit there and pretend it's not happening. Interestingly, she has not been inappropriate in the least since that night when I decided I wasn't going to let her make me feel like a victim anymore. I also wrote her a long email and was candid and confrontive about her behaviors and the fact that it is time to get out of this fucked up cycle.

So, I guess there's my story--a lot of it anyway. If there's only one thing that anyone takes to heart about what I have written here, it's this: A person doesn't have to touch you, talk to you, show you porn, etc. in order to perpetrate sexual abuse. There are lots of ways to abuse and believe me, an offender who isn't interested in change but needs to "play the game of recovery" in order to decrease or escape punishment will find other ways to abuse. And it will suck just as much as if you'd been raped.

I hope there is a little something here that is helpful.

Sincerely,

Arwen

August 2, 2003
11:21 am
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Evi,

Yes, by all means, I would like the info for the director there in AR, perhaps they can point me in the right direction.

Let me tell you a little something. While this man was being sentenced, of course the Judge outlined all of the things he was supposed to do, one of which was to attend the Sexual Offenders class while incarcerated.

So, here he is being sentenced in a court of law. Now folks, I have a feeling, you and I and most of the other folks of the world would be standing their with our heads bowed in shame, or looking at the Judge right?

In his case, wrong. He stood there the whole time shaking his head "NO" - I don't know if he thought that was going to make a difference, or what?

Then I got one of his letter, and in it he says something like "I deserve to be getting out now, not in two to six years." Actually, I have no idea where he is getting the two years from as he will be in for another six, but that is irrelevant. I got the distinct idea that he will either not attend the sex offenders classes, or he will sit there the entire time with his arms crossed shaking his head no.

I think the main problem is, he does not think he is a sex offender. He does not understand what he has done is wrong. He is so damn stuck on this issue that he will not even be aware enough to go to these classes and hear some of this and say "Oh sh**, YES, I have a problem." As we have said in this thread many times, according to him, it was consensual.

Arwen, you amaze me! I love the fact that you do not blame others and take total responsibility for yourself. I find it wonderful that you think of others as a soul, no matter what. I don't think I'm to that level yet, but I have learned something over the years.

I married into a family of "old Southern money" - they are uptight! My sister, in September will be in the same situation. Anyway, she and I were talking the other day about our respective in-laws, lordy that would be a thread that would go on for years... anyway, about how uptight and small minded they are in some ways. She made the comment like "I never realized how totally open minded we were raised!"

Now, I'm thinking "hum, we were raised pretty conservatively right?" But, then I thought about it, and I have to agree she is right. Our parents raised and taught us that a person is a person no matter what and who they are. So, if you happen to be a black lesbian Buddist, and you were a person who was liked in our home, you were welcome. Which is really cool because that explains why so many people have always felt at home with my parents and family and we always had so many interesting people around growing up, especially during the holidays because often times their own family's did not understand them or welcome them. So they were taken in by our's.

Since then I have been in situations with my in-laws, and I will find myself talking to someone who I find interesting, and they will look at me like I'm nuts - ah, who am I kidding they think that anyway. But, what is really cool is that my husband has totally opened up and come to accept people now as people without giving them labels. They are no longer black, gay, whatever - he see's them as people, and his circle of friends has increased. Of course his family thinks I'm a horrible influence, but I can live with that.

But, back to my original thought here, sorry to have wandered. Arwen, I think it is beautiful that you can find pleasure in the person spiritually and intellectually and take your enjoyment to a physical level.

I think you handled your sister in the right way, and you are correct in the fact that she is still abusing whoever is at hand.

By the way Arwen, do you know anyone in the Los Lunas area that I can go to for help?

Thank you so much. I am so grateful to have found all of you.

Love to all,
Zinnie

August 2, 2003
1:04 pm
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I will get the number for you on monday. It is at the office. I won't forget.

Arwen-sounds like you have pulled yourself together. You are right; people don't have to touch you to be abusive. Mind games and emotional abuse are worst. The hardest to prove but the definately the worst. If you just need to vent...I will gladly be there for you.

August 2, 2003
1:13 pm
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Zinnie.......Regarding this...

I think the main problem is, he does not think he is a sex offender. He does not understand what he has done is wrong. He is so damn stuck on this issue that he will not even be aware enough to go to these classes and hear some of this and say "Oh sh**, YES, I have a problem." As we have said in this thread many times, according to him, it was consensual.

NO. It's not about any of that with this man. You're still giving him WAY too much credit here and THAT turns right into a hook for him...and he counts on that, uses it until he can't use you anymore.

People just don't understand that psychopaths........DON'T CARE. It's NOT in them. They are right, you are wrong and that is that. It's not like you can teach them not to be a monster, or that ONE DAY it will just dawn on them and they will be enlightened... By this stage and age in his life - he's a hard and cold predator. I'm SO glad you got those books and I won't keep harping on these things very much because it's all in those two books.

They way these people keep doing their stuff is because we will not really, really see them for exactly what they are. We have this idea in our heads that - everyone can be helped and no one is as lost cause. I beg to differ. There are some monsters in our midst that will work you and charm you till the day you die and when you give them one inch, they will cut your heart out and serve it to you and then go have a hotdog - because they are THAT cold and dead inside.

We just need to really IDENTIFY those kinds of people and know what we are looking at when we see it. God is not going to hate you, if you make that kind of judgement call either. I think He rather requires that we be wise, in order to protect ourselves and our children.

As far as the "south" goes.........don't even get me started. I was raised in the south and I know all about that particular "mentality". I often tell people that a whole conversation goes on with them sometimes - with a look and body language that goes around an entire room. Openminded? That's a laugh. Very closed culture. Let's just say - I was very close to the man Bufford Pusser, the Walking Tall sheriff. So that's what I was raised in and around. And btw, that story....is just a wee bit different than what really happened...

They do have "their way" of doing things and if you are an independent thinker, prepare for battle because it's coming.

Critical thinking? What the hell would that be down there? That's a real hoot. I think things have gotten "some" better with so many people moving in and some new blood coming in. But the old regime way - is still very much there and I feel it when I drive through, like a thick fog, it settles in and I go OMG, it's still here....

I remember going through there back in 1996 and talking to black people like they were anyone else. What a shocker that was to them. I stopped in at a little restaurant I used to go to and wanted some of those little fried fruit pie turnovers, like all they had - and there was a black woman in front of me, waiting to pay her bill. Well, I was talking my head off behind her about the pies and the white woman at the cash register goes, OH, well I'll take care of your right now, how many you want? I said - OH NO, I'm so sorry, don't mind me and turned to the black woman - you wait on her, she was first.

The cashier said - Oh she can wait. I put my head down, got a tone with her and said NO, SHE WON'T, SHE was first! The black woman was shaking now and the cashier was getting this big tude with me. Everyone in the place dropped their utensils and looked at us. I turned around and said What the Hell you guys looking at? The little black woman started moving to the side and I got her by the shoulders and moved her back in front of me and said, Sweetheart, don't you do that, don't you ever do that again. You're first. And I looked at the cashier and said TAKE her money. Well, I got my pies and went to my car and realized how much danger I probably put that little lady in bec. I wanted to be the white knight. She has to live there, I don't. And it just broke my heart......I thought we had progressed more than that, but I guess not.

I don't know if you've ever read Ann Rule's book - All She Ever Wanted - if you haven't, you should. It's about a southern belle and boy howdy - did she know how to work people. She was a murderer, too. Quite the little psychopath. She sure knew how to do the charm thing though....as many southern belles know how. I think in some ways, they were forced to learn that craft because of how chauvinistic that culture was and still is.

Don't get me wrong though, there are some beautiful people down there. Good salt of the earth kind, that their word is their honor. I knew a few of those and hold them close to my heart always.

August 2, 2003
9:06 pm
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Hi Ladeska,

I picked up my books today, and am going to begin reading them.

I think you are right in the fact that the harder I try to understand this person, and his Mother, I don't. And... I never will because I flat out am not wired like that. Thank God! They do not care who they hurt, who they take advantage of or anything else, as long as they get what they want.

As I have said before, running up these phone bills, having me fly from state to state to take care of things for him, no matter what is going on in my life means absolutely nothing to him (or his Mother).

Case in point, after he was arrested, his house sat open for eight months. Finally after the foreclosure went through, the bank contacted me that they were going to toss everything they found so they could get the house ready for sale.

I flew out there and packed up what needed to be saved and tossed the rest. Now mind you this man's father, mother and brother (the one that was standing beside him) lived within 20 miles of there. But, no, I had to fly in from another state to do this. I took two days off of work, and a weekend to do this.

Come Monday morning, I'm back at work, and my phone rings. Who is it? My Aunt - his Mother. She said "well, he called, and we were wondering if you could come out and take pictures of all the stuff you had to throw away?" I was like WHAT, WHY? If you want pix, go take them yourself, you are only 20 miles away. She says well, he wants to show the Judge what all he lost because of his ex-wife. I got nasty at that point and said "if you show a Judge all the crap that I threw out, they will say that they were lucky a fire marshall was never out at that house." I then hung up. I was so angry.

So, you see he has learned/inherited these traits from the master, his mother. Not saying that none of this is his fault, he had his own choices to make.

Looking back, and hind sight is always 20/20 as the sayings go, I realize that I have been played. Big time, which is why I feel like a fool. He knows exactly what to say and do to get others to feel sorry for him. His Mother is the same way. She finally figured out that when she calls I don't answer the phone, or if she leaves a message, I will not return it because frankly, she is nuts. So, she started calling our house at 1:30 in the morning, knowing that most folks at that time of the morning will answer thinking it is an emergency. Well, I learned that too, so I unplug our phone at night.

I can only hope that I will never be this blinded again.

Regarding the South... yes, it is a world unto it's own. My in-laws are something else, and when they found out the week before their son's wedding that I was Hispanic, you would have thought he was marrying a Martian. What I find really interesting is that for as up-tight as my Mother-in-law is, her Mother was wonderful. Accepted me from day one, and was always interested in some of the different aspects of my culture. She also enjoyed trying any kind of new foods I would make, but that was her. She passed on four years ago, at the age of 101. I still miss her, she was truly an inspiration for so many.

I will keep you updated on my findings as I read these books. Thanks to all for helping to keep me strong!

Love to all,
Zinnie

August 2, 2003
10:03 pm
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Good Zinnie. I'm glad you got them and I'm also glad that your eyes are opened to these people now. They are nothing but trouble, sweetie. Stay very far away from even thinking about doing ONE thing for them again. I'm sure, they will find another victim very soon.... You are telling me nothing I don't already know intimately well. They have no conscience whatsoever and look at you as only something to make their life better and then when they are done, toss you overboard.

So, you hang tough!!! You were lucky to have that little old lady for as long as you had here! 101?? Wow, now that's a long time to live, huh? Amazing! You seem to have your head on straight though. Just continue to stand strong, be yourself and demand respect. You're going to learn quite a bit from these books... I look forward to your thoughts and insight. (smile)

August 3, 2003
3:34 am
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I gotta say I think this is such a cool thread. I hope every visitor and writer here takes the time to come in and see what's going on here.

I forgot to mention in my last post, Evi, nothing you have said has ever offended me. And if I ever feel offended, then I need to take that inside of myself and work a process to figure out why, because the "why" is about me being uncomfortable with something about me. Thus, virtually any offense can actually be a learning tool. Don't ever sweat that kind of thing where I'm concerned.

Thanks to those who expressed interest in my story and took the time to read it. Zinnie, I got all excited when I read that you are Hispanic. I was born here in SW New Mexico, and have lived here all my life. Oddly, I have a Japanese mother and father who is Euro-American (is this the latest P.C. term for "whitie"? Just kidding!!!). Because I have lived here for so long, I have a strong connection to aspects of Mexican, Native American, and Spanish influences. All this combined with my mother's Japanese cultural influence and my father's Texas farmer/rancher/miner influence has blessed me with a wonderful opportunity to experience a variety of cultures intimately. Unfortunately, since I live in Southwest NM, I don't have any ties that spring to mind in Los Lunas, but the world works wonders, and if I'm meant to be a part of your process, then the right person and opportunities will present themselves.

Totally off the subject, I am a tried and true "Hick". I spent a couple of weeks in Los Angeles after I graduated from high school, and by the time the two weeks was over I was ready to have a nervous breakdown. I'm used to being able to drive 5 minutes in any direction and be someplace beautiful where there's no one else around. That's what it's like down here although our town is growing because it's popular for the climate, real estate prices, and beauty of the area. The only time I've ever been further East than Texas was about a year and a half ago when I was chosen to go to Washington, DC with some grassroots advocacy groups in order to meet with Senators and talk to them about meeting the needs of impoverished Americans. I spent the entire time looking straight up because all the buildings are so tall!

I've never had any encounters with Southerners, so to speak, but let me tell you, I went to Salt Lake City Utah, and Pocatello Idaho, and that was some scary shit. It seems like there's no such thing as a brown-eyed, brown-haired, person with a medium complexion in either of those states! Imagine me, my sister, my Japanese mother, my Caucasian father, my blond haired, blue eyed son, and my little half African American daughter walking through a little road side diner for lunch. Everyone stared at us like we were a fucking carnival side show or something. I had, and still have no idea about how to deal with something like that!

I admire anyone who can come from roots where there are many hidden elements of discrimination and develop the ability to see beyond looks and into who the person is. And Ladeska, I admire the hell out of you for taking a stand in that bakery. Not many people would be so brave, and what you did is exactly what the world needs--lots of someones willing to stand up and say "This behavior is not okay and we won't tolerate seeing our brothers and sisters being treated like this!"

What interesting tales and experiences you all have to share. Thank you all very much!

Love,

Arwen

August 3, 2003
12:19 pm
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Arwen - You're just so damned cute. Spunky little thing aren't cha? And Zinnie and Evi - just love the hell out of you guys, too! GROUP HUG!!!

I do want to say a few things to you Arwen after reading some things here in a recent post to Evi....I hope you realize that your sister didn't get where she is - all by herself. And that how this all got started probably wasn't as innocent as you might think.

I STRONGLY suspect that there is another perpetrator that was either in your household at the time, most likely a parent and if not that - then it was someone who was very close to the family and had access...aunt, uncle, babysitter, etc.

She was just born a perpetrator. I don't believe that. Neither do I believe her innocent sexual explorations as a child - developed the way it did and she became who she is. Don't believe that for a minute.

There is a shadow here - that has not been identified yet and it needs to be identified. If it were me - I'd be finding who that person was and blowing the cover right off of them and probably lighting off a bomb of stink within the whole family by bringing everything - right out into the open. There is no other way to deal with - this shit.

I mean you can fight things as you have with your sister, but that's only spraying a little weed kill on things, it's not getting right down to the roots and it's not really bringing everyone front and center and saying - we've got a cancer going on here folks and I intend to cut it out. Just like you told Jwt on another thread - the same cancer is within this family and it needs to be attacked much in the same way.

You can't just do behavior modification with your sister. And everytime you are around her or your kids are around her - you guys are in jeopardy, one way or the other. The problem with all this is, especially with you - is that your own innocent sexual exploration is very much intertwined here and she is your sister - both of which - are huge hooks with her. She knows you are going to do certain kinds of dances with her that won't really get right down to it. Sure she can go into hiding, sure she can act like for awhile that you have won because of the email or how you were with her that one day. Doesn't change the fact that she is a full blown perpetrator and an extremely dangerous person, especially for any kids to be around.

You have to separate you - from her - in how you deal with things. She's your sister, yes. You went along with some things because of your own innocent childlike sexual explorations - yes. But don't let these things really keep you - from seeing the - big picture here. And there is a BIGGER picture here. You've just skimmed the surface.

If it were me - I'd sit everyone down together, including the kids and just bring it all out into the open and let the chips fall where they may. Just like you told Jwt, you can't just attack the cancer by putting a bandaid on it....this kind of cancer won't just go into remission. She may be a lost cause but she needs to be exposed for what she is. AND you need to look at all the other family members and go - so where did this really all start? I need answers, who abused HER? And I'm looking hard at that question - and I want answers. Everyone is suspect here that had access - everyone.

Of course she will throw it up in your face and in your siblings face that you participated but you're older, stronger and more intelligent to let that dog hunt. You put it right back into her court and go Oh NO, you don't!! I know the skinny on all that now so that defense is no defense and don't EVEN go there. This wasn't just an innocent little game that was going on here. Maybe, "maybe" it started out that way....but the large majority of what you did was full on - perp activity and you learned it from somewhere. Where was that? Who did this to YOU?

That way you pull the sheets and the shadows right off of everything and you let everyone else know, your siblings and your own children that - you aren't waltzing with this anymore and you will not allow this to just be dealt with in any other manner than up front and straight up. It's time to - Cowgirl Up.

I CRINGE when I read what you wrote regarding her and I am filled with RAGE. You could never bring me into your family situation and me not level the whole place with my mouth because I would do - exactly what I'm asking you to do here. You might hate me for it, but I'd do it anyways because it needs to be done. I could no more be civil to this woman than I could to my own father. They are one and the same.

She might not ever be helped, Arwen....that's a real good bet. But for the sake of everyone else involved here - her cover needs to be blown into a million little pieces. And the family - needs to take collective responsibility here because this cancer - had it's origin and it wasn't with her....there was another source and it may still be - very active. If that person is still alive - you can bet your butt - they are still perpetrating.

You've done exceptionally well so far and my hat is right off to you.. It really is. But it is far from over... I know you have this kind of courage. I can smell it in you. You're one fiery sister and I respect that SO much. But it's time to take a deep breath and go right to the mark. You're not done yet, sweetie. The bigger battle is still in front of you.

I challenge you in this way because I know you've got it in you and I deeply care about your wellbeing and anyone else that your sister has infected with her poison and those that she might infect still. It's just not okay to slap her on the hand, you only send her into another mode of doing - the same old thing and not getting really exposed. Time for you to show your ass - to her - front and center. Showtime.

I'm here for you and I've done this....so I know how hard it is. It wasn't fun believe me. I almost lost my life over it. There is a part of my story that I've never told to you guys yet but when I did take that deep breath and clear the floor - I was 17 years old and things got REAL ugly for me. But it is in my nature that when I decide to Pony Up - you better fucking move out of the way because I'm coming through - win, lose or draw. It's called - Follow through - and that concept means the world to me. That's why sometimes I wait and watch and get all my dots in a row and then I execute an attack and it's - All OUT. I'm coming and if you got anything to throw at me - make it good.

When I exposed my father to the world - let's just say that - my family hated my guts for it and I have cousins that won't speak to me to this day. Why? I well imagine the same thing has happened to them, either at the hands of my so-called father/brother and from my grandfather/father. OMG, I didn't just play the good ole southern game anymore! What a monster I was! Screw that. The cards are on the table. You guys deal with it. They didn't and I blew them all off.

So you reach way down inside Arwen and you reckon with what I've told you here. You think about it long and hard. You're a warrior in this life and if you weren't, I wouldn't even bother being so bold with you. But you "are". I'd get in the ring with you any day and risk you getting mad at me because I know - where you "live". It's time to rock and roll, sweetie. As always, I'm here...

August 3, 2003
12:36 pm
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Hi All,

Well, Ladeska - thanks for your post! However, being a human as I'm sure you can understand as you appear to be one as well, you know one of those entities with a conscience; you can understand why I have such a hard time understanding these folks. I was taught to think of others feelings and what my actions might do to them. So, now I'm dealing with people who have no consideration of what they do to others, either physically, emotionally, mentally, or any other way. I am only now beginning to understand that it flat out does NOT bother them that they hurt others. It just doesn't.

Arwen, very cool back ground info! Yes, I am half Hispanic, my father is Spaniard/Mexican, and he grew up in Albquerque, which is where I was born. But, I grew up in Los Angeles, and now live in TX.

My mom is Scot/Dane, born in Scotland, but looks like a Viking! I kid you not, she is six feet tall, blond hair, blue eyes. All she is missing is the hat with the horns!

So, we have a cool looking mix in our family. I have four brothers who are dark skinned, black haired with dark eyes, one brother with blond hair, dark brown eyes, two red-headed brothers, one with blue eyes one with brown, and one brother with almost white hair and blue eyes. The youngest brother is medium colored all around. My sister is dark haired with read highlights (my dad says when she is in the sun, her hair looks like a new penny on fire), and dark eyes. Then there is me, with olive skin, dark hair and green, green, green eyes! My mom told me that several times when she would drop us off at school, folks would ask her if she had adopted "those little Mexican kids" - she was like "uh.... no...."

I would imagine with your heritage, you must be beautiful, although from what you write, you are beautiful inside, which is what makes you beautiful outside as well.

Yes, it seems I learn more and more as we progress through this thread. I cannot believe that before all of this, I really thought that some of these people could be helped. I'm coming to realize that as Ladeska and Evi have stated it is just too late.

All of this has also forced me to think of my own sexual experience when I was younger as previously posted. I have called around and found out what happened to the person I talked about, the one who was cruel during our relationship. I have found out he has been married at least five times, and sadly has put three of of his wives in the hospital due to beatings. I can only thank the heavens that I got out when I did. Then, as I said that my next partner was the man he was.

I hope that my cousins victims can find peace at some point in their lives. It hurts and makes me sad in the fact that they are so completely enmeshed into such a dysfunctional family. I have not shared this with you all yet, but when the kids mother testifed on the stand, the thing that made my hair stand up on end was the fact that she said "well, I knew for about four months what had been going on, but she (the little girl) was already upset about having a new baby in the house, so I did not want to change her routine" - what the hell? Why was this woman not on trial as well? Talk about sending your child into the lions den.

Scares me to death.

Love to all,
Zinnie

August 3, 2003
4:01 pm
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I can't add much more to what Ladeska wrote to Arwen. It is a fact that we are not born preditors. Are behaviors and sexaul actions have been taught to us at one point in time.
Your sister could have been abused when she was very young and has chosen to supress the incident and truely does not remember. It is also possible she witnessed some event of sexual nature and never knew how to deal with what she saw or the indicent sparked intrest and so she tried things on her self and sisters. Who truely knows your sister sounds like she has alot of issues she does not even know about.

....on the other subject. I don't know why poeple to have see color in people anyway. This is an issue that has a tendency to piss me off. I personally don't care if a person is black, white, red, yellow or what ever. The person on the inside is what is I see. I get tired of the white people being white trash and blaming the economy for thier way of life. I get tired of the Black blaming the whites for what our past history and things we has no control over. I will write more on the issue when I can. gotta go for now.

August 3, 2003
5:37 pm
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I gotta tell you guys this funny, but kinda disgusting thing... On my birth certificate, where it asks for the race of my mother, it says "yellow". Honest to god, YELLOW! What the fuck is up with that? If "YELLOW" is a race, then I guess bananas and lemons are my cousins!!! Colors are colors, not ethnicities. Don't you agree?

Okay, let's get serious.

When I went through therapy the first time, I did a lot of exploration around who perped on my oldest sister. I talked to her about it, and to my other siblings as well, trying to discover what our root issue was. The one big thing we had in common was an "uncle" on my dad's side of the family.

The story goes like this: my dad's younger brother had a friend, we'll call him Zeke. Zeke's mother was dead and his dad re-married. Zeke's step-mother was horribly abusive, according to my grandmother. She told me first hand that Zeke would come over and be just covered head to toe with welts and bruises compliments of his step-mother. My grandma told me that Zeke came to their house one day, and he was near death. He was terribly ill, turned out to be pneumonia, and again, covered with his step-mother's signatures of abuse. My grandma got him medical help, and took him into their home. Zeke's parents threatened my grandma, saying they were going to call the law if she didn't send Zeke home, and my grandma said she told them to go right ahead. Said she would love to have a nice, long conversation with the law about Zeke's pneumonia and injuries. She said she never heard from Zeke's parents again, and Zeke lived with them until he turned 18 (he was 12 when they took him in).

Zeke was like family in their eyes. No, interestingly, my dad left home at age 17, made my grandma sign papers so he could go into the airforce. I'm guessing Zeke had been living in their home for about 2 years when my dad left. I have long suspected that some kind of sexual abuse was perped on my dad, but he denies it.

Now, when I started looking into who might have perped on my oldest sister we all drew a blank, including her. She said she didn't remember anything like that ever happening to her, but that she knew she was sexually "triggered" at an early age because she remembers masturbating when she was still in diapers.

When my parents were first married, they were poor. My dad worked all kinds of odd jobs, even picking up trash at a local drive-in movie theater, to make ends meet. Also, he was continuing his education--ended up with degrees in computer science, math, and chemistry. While all this was going on, he and my mom would spend lots of time at a sawmill my grandpa owned. My dad would work at the mill, and I believe Zeke and my dad's youngest brother worked there at the same time.

EVERY ONE of my siblings had one thing in common. We all got freaked out when we were going to visit my grandparents if we knew Zeke was going to be there. In fact, we would beg our dad to stay home for Christmas, or Thanksgiving, or whatever holiday if we knew Zeke and his kids were going to be around. He creeped us out, hardcore. I mean HARDCORE! He was always trying to corner us, pick us up no matter how much we screamed. And believe me, I screamed bloody murder every time he came near me or picked me up. He would offer us candy, but insist that we kiss him if we wanted it. We never wanted his candy. In writing this, I remember he had a stink to him. I don't think it was a problem with hygiene, I think it was a smell of who he was. We would move out of whatever room he was in. He was always happy to volunteer to babysit us when everyone wanted to go and shop. Intuitively, we knew he was dangerous.

I believe he was the perpetrator. He died years ago. Got a brain tumor. If he was still alive, I'd confront him, but I don't need to. I have that "way of knowing". I don't have any other way to describe it, but I just know things sometimes. My sibs also describe the same feelings, and believe that he was the perp. I think he perped on at least one of my cousins. I know he tried to perp on me and my sisters. I think he perped on my oldest sister when she was an infant.

I feel for his kids. Looking back, they displayed very obvious signs of sexual and physical abuse. I don't know where any of them are, and don't think I would want to talk to them about this if I did know. He is dead. I believe he continues to live with what he did, and what was done to him. I believe he will be made to return to this life to heal the wounds he suffered in his abuse, and to own the abuse he perpetrated on others. I believe he will live it over and over and over until he finally gets it.

This is how I deal with this particular piece of my process. I try not to second-guess myself, but to listen to my gut, and accept what that part of me says as true. You know, that part of you that grown ups tend to stomp on until it dies in you when you're a kid?

I would love to hear everyone's take on this. Thanks for taking the time to read and ponder...

Love,

Arwen

August 3, 2003
7:36 pm
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That sounds very viable, that this probably did happen concerning Zeke. But what really troubles me is that - your father was probably perped by him as well and the fact is - there never should have been a "maybe" regarding him babysitting any of you if this was the case, so what was UP with that? God, this angers me!!!!!!! And to be quite honest with you, my eyes are a bit on your dad in all of this. So if it was okay for him to babysit you guys and he was perped by him as well..........just makes my eyebrows go up, ya know?

And I'm quite sure your sister, as a baby in diapers did not masturbate herself.....that was someone else doing that. You guys were not safe and I'm not just not OKAY with your parents about this. I mean WHAT WERE THEY THINKING??????? Even if your father wasn't doing anything himself and was dealing with his own issues, he should have KNOWN what kind of danger his own children would be in anywhere around Zeke!!

Here you guys have had gut instincts galore as children and as adults, bells and whistles have gone off right, left and sideways and I beg to question - WHY didn't the same kind of radar go off in your parents, especially with your dad. This is NO excuse for this. NONE. He put you guys right in harm's way big time and there is every reason to believe that he might have done some of the perping himself. I'm sorry, sweetie, if I'm coming off real strong here but I'm just seeing freaking red right now. All this horror and damage has been done to you guys and who knows - how many others and yet - where the hell were your parents in all this?

I mean when you guys got freaked out having to go around him....didn't your parents take note of this????? It's like they fed you to the lions!!!! I don't get it, I just do NOT get it. Maybe you can make it plainer for me but right now - it's a good damned thing I don't have both of your parents in front of me right now because it would NOT be pretty.

August 3, 2003
8:19 pm
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You go girl.......

Ok, I just typed a novel and lost it by having my head up my but and hitting a wrong key.....so Let me try this again.

Your father may or not have been abused by "Zeke" he may have seen Zeke do something to someone else. He did, I am sure know what type of person he was. However, in that era, (not makeing excuses but fact)this type of knowledge was kept a quiet kept locked in a closet and kept there until death. No one talked about it or even brought it up.

You children had to protect yourself and clung together, I have found that the middle age children protected the older and younger siblings, don't know why this is so, but if there is 3 usually the middle one was the protector, sometimes with out the other ones even knowing.

The nice thing about children is there ability to block out tramatic incidents. Some remember when they get older some never do. Some want too others don't. I did not use to believe in this mind supression type stuff, until I attended a class on it and it is true. Your sister for somereason has chosen to block this memory out. You will probably never know all of the abuse you and your family has gone through. You can either do what you have done and go one with your life and just try to understand your self or you can keep digging. Sometimes this causes more bad then good. Sometimes things are better left alone if there is no one that will get anything out of it. It all depends on those involved. the main thing is you and your children. If he is dead, he has already answered to the Lord God almighty (I hope you believe in God, it sure makes life a little easier at times).

August 3, 2003
9:37 pm
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Hi Guys,

O.K. - help me out here... Arwen, let me tell you a little more about the situation with my cousin, and WHY I was so willing to believe that he was innocent.

One of the people that were yelling and screaming the loudest was this man's sister-in-law. This was his first wife's sister. Now it came out that he had sex with her when she was either 12 or 13, or so she said (at this point, I'm still believing him remember). Well, if he supposedly "raped" her when she was 12 or 13, why? Why? Why? Why, would she marry his brother? Then, when she and her husband (this man's brother) moved out to CA during the 80's, they lived with my folks. O.K., let me tell you, on the weekends, there were tire tracks leading from our house down to the military base, they could not wait to spend time with their brother and sister. To help here, it was the two brothers married to the two sisters. Then, when she had kids she let this man babysit her kids. So, at the beginning of this all I'm thinking "if any of that is true, why would she willingly spend time with him? Why would she let him babysit her kids?"

If someone did that to me, it would be a cold day in hell before I spent time with them, or before I ever let them within looking distance of my children.

Then, during the trial, all of these people that he molested over the years that now came forward. They had all let him watch their kids. What the hell? I don't get it. Why would these people let him near their kids?

Add to this, the man is a major con man as we have all said here many times, so you see how I was taken in. But, I look at myself in this, and I think, after finding out what I have about him, there is no way in hell he is coming near my daughter. Either while she is staying here or once she goes back home. My instinct is to protect her at all costs.

Am I that abnormal? Do people just let their kids go into these situations? Why? If he hurt them before why would you let your kids be with him?

Arwen, I know what you are saying about the "smell" - but I agree with Evi. Why?

Help me understand this.

I hope you are all well tonight. I'm dealing with a goon-ball dog, and my husband bought him this toy duck that he has quacking all over the house!

Love,
Zinnie

August 3, 2003
9:53 pm
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Yes, suppression is a big deal and very real. In fact, Evi, what happens is a very real thing goes on inside our brains, as a developing child that affects our memory when it comes to trauma and basically too many stress hormones and natural chemicals our body makes - that does tremendous damage. This is one of research areas and people are just now really beginning to understand all this. Search down and find my thread about what abuse and stress does to the brain, or something like that, it wasn't too long ago that I wrote on that.

And you're right about the digging, digging, it can do good and it can be harmful. For me, I'm a digger. For others, it may not be wise. I tend to rattle things until as much as can shake loose does. Just my nature, I'm a pitbull. I bite, jaws lock, that kind of thing. (smile)

I will have to say though that I have part company here in one vein - that just because the times were the way they were - that it somehow excuses behavior. It doesn't. For time eternal children have been abused like this and it's been swept under the carpet or the way has been made so hard that whatever enlightened time does happen, it soon becomes dark again and abuse continues of the innocent. So I just can't excuse it or even understand it based upon the time in history that it was done. I heard all that in the south growing up and believed it for awhile but now know what a crock it was.

My stepmother fed me that line, too, while the abuse was going on that - people wouldn't understand, I couldn't talk, she couldn't talk, etc., etc. There isn't help for us, people will shame us, blah, blah, blah. Okay fine, it's hard, okay fine, it's an obstacle but bottomline here is - you protect your children and that's that.

For one thing if Arwen and her siblings put up such a fuss and showed their fear, which I'm very sure they did and believe me - parents know the signs, I don't care what generation they grew up in....they know - when the bells and whistles are going off and their kids just aren't okay. I'm sick and tired of people getting off the hook and not held to accountability at some point for their act of "allowing" things to happen. To me - they are as much to blame as the perpetrator themselves.

My stepmother sacrificed me by doing that very thing and then later abused me herself. If it were me, back then - and I had a child - I would have been on the first bus out of that town and never looked back. That's - what a parent does for their child. If you couldn't get help, then you help yourself and your child and if you have to give your life doing it - that's exactly what you do.

Arwen may decide that she can't ask these questions of her parents now and to just go on with her life, but if it were me - there would be an accounting to be had, front and center. YOU tell ME and my siblings WHY it was okay to allow us to be around Zeke. I find it very, very hard to believe that neither of them knew how dangerous he was. I just don't buy that one for a minute.

And as far as your sister is concerned, Arwen, it would be a cold day in hell before she was allowed to be around my children. This whole thing is just such a web of lies, of hiding, of manipulation and avoiding the light of day. There comes a time when raw truth is really needed to cut right through everything and stop this infection from spreading. And if it makes someone feel bad in the process - OH DARN IT.

Your parents at least need to know what happened and what they allowed. I'm so sorry if it hurts them but you guys were all hurt because of this. And THAT is the real tragedy here. There is little if any doubt in my mind from what you've said here that it wasn't Zeke. Just too many arrows pointing in that direction.

One of my real pet peeves in life - are people like the mother, for example, that has a husband who is molesting her children and yet "she didn't know"..... Yea right. Nine times of ten - they did know, they just played dumb because they didn't want to make waves for their own selfish reasons.

Then these very women turn on their daughters and treat them like - the other woman and a slut and drive them right into some really bad life choices because of their own guilty conscience. I've seen alot of that one and can spot it a mile off with a mother and daughter. You know the drill....the daughter is getting to be of age and it's "YOU are just a whore, look at the way you're dressing! You'll never amount to anything. No man is ever going to respect you. Wipe off that make-up, you tramp. OMG, look at how slutty you're dressing today, you going out like THAT??

That kind of thing......... The mother is filled with rage and takes it out on the daughter and usually the perpetrator goes scott-free, whether an uncle, the father or a family friend. And as the case may be, it probably happened to her as a child and she hates herself because she went through the same kind of ropes with her own mother. That's what has been going down for ages and it's time it stopped - one family at a time.

I'm just sick and tired of seeing people like this get away with all this and the children going off with all these wounds and then excusing them because of "the times they lived in" etc., etc., etc. My favorite line again - That Dog Don't Hunt.

There are absolute wrongs in this life and even if it's just a straight up talk that says - Hey Mom and Dad, what's UP? At least they had to account to someone for not being a good parent. Enough of trying to make them feel better and feeling sorry for them because "they did the best they could". Oh NO they didn't. It happened, they were on guard and on duty and it's NOT okay.

You can bet the bank that if I knew someone like that in my family and my daughter was going to be around them and she showed intense fear (for one thing, if I knew someone like that, they wouldn't be going around them) but just for kicks and giggles IF that happened this way - there is no way in hell I wouldn't see the signs because for one thing - they'd be flashing RED, RED, RED and that's for anyone to see, abuse victim or not. I'd see that reaction going on and sit her down and say - Sweetie....what is it, why are you so afraid, please talk to me, I'm not going to just ignore this.

Too many people are getting off the hook these days for just "not having a clue" or whatever reason they can fabricate that sounds good and what I say to that one is if you can wind your watch and get up and go to work every day - your brain is functioning well enough to see trauma in the face of your child. We've been able to smell that one since time began on this planet, it's called - instinct and nothing is stronger than our instinct as far as our own children goes. But the real deal is - what we "CHOOSE" to do with the information that is incoming? It's called.........I will sweep it under the rug because.......it will just start alot of trouble if I don't. Well, isn't that just wicked? I think so. I've seen sooo many of these people in action and how they act all innocent and they don't remember and, and they didn't know and didn't know what to do and, and....OH PLEASE!!! You have no idea how much of this with people is total and complete bull. Some may block stuff out but a whole lot of them remember. And even if the block out their own abuse, like her father for example - they sure as hell should know something is not right in the ointment here by watching his own children and watching the actions of Zeke. I'm quite sure he didn't always had his persona. Then again, I am an outspoken little brat here sometimes. If I've talked out of line here, please forgive me. I've just walked in all this and it sucks. I've heard all the stories that can be conjured up about how - people just didn't know and I've been around the block enough to know that most of that is just straight up bullshit. That little innocent act is rather sickening and when you really pin them...oh my, my can they get oh so nasty then... I just smile and go - Gotcha. They get angry at me because I see through them and what they really should be doing is having empathy for their own children and what they went through. So when the anger comes out and narcissistic self-preservation mode kicks in - it's all too obvious to me - who knew, what - when.

You know - when your own child is in danger. You feel it in every fiber of your being. And if one parent is so desensitized by whatever that it doesn't register - then I say - and what about the Other Parent? Are they brain dead, too?

Sorry Evi........I'm not attacking you...I hope you know that. I know we're on the same team, believe me....it's just some things really get my dander up and this is one of them. I've seen too many people take the fifth who's hands were just as dirty as the perp themselves. I tend to look at people like that real hard. They are so good at absolving themselves of all responsibility and I call big time FOUL on it.

August 4, 2003
10:06 am
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I couldn't agree more with everything you have said. It isn't that I condone or even agree with the things that I have learned. You and I along with others would do and handle differently. Sometimes I have to figure out (old) angles to get to the bottom line where abuse has started.

I deal with getting confessions and getting a perp or parent to tell me things sometimes means giving them a way out or an excuse for thier behavior. Not that I believe it, but I will do what ever takes. If arwen goes to her parents with that type of approach, it may work better then being defensive right off the bat. You can feel it, but knowing when it is right to go for the kill is different.

I couldn't agree with you and everyone's opion more. I don't think all people know the complexity of these issues, it is nice to have conversations with people who truly know and don't pretend; if you know what I mean.

August 4, 2003
11:30 am
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Zinnie,

Here is an e-mail address to help you get started on knowing more about the sex assessment screening:

[email protected]

let me know if you have problems with this address if so, I have somemore and phone numbers too. At least this is a way for additional information.

Good luck.

August 4, 2003
11:35 am
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Some people are just stupid Zinnie, refering to his sister in law. Unfortunately they don't think rationally like normal people. They belive that this is a one time incident that that it was a first and only time and they were the only victims. Some strange people think that "children" are safe. They are wrong. But they think of 990000 reasons why the kids would be safe. I assume she thought, they are his brother's children, was one thought, and he would never to that to them.

I have given up on trying to think of the excuses they use, but it is real and thank God not everyone is that stupid. Can you imagine trying to live with that guilt. And we think we have troubles......

Gotta go will chat later.

August 4, 2003
11:37 am
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Oh, I know what you mean, for sure, Evi. Strategy for dealing with folks like this can be a big deal, depending what you are doing at the time. I absolutely believe it has it's place and I've studied along those lines quite a bit. But I also have a hardline on things, too. Is just the way I'm wired I guess. Sometimes I'll do the dance, depends on what is required and then other times it's like - why don't we just cut right to the chase here, shall we?

I think in situations like Arwen's, it's not so much about getting a confession as it is - her stating and her siblings calling them on the carpet for their part in all this and holding them accountable. It's good their own mental health. One can spend many years trying to engage in strategy, but in some cases - what's the point? Enough of the dance already. This is what happened, it wasn't okay, where were you, what was your part in all this and the ball is now back in your court - answer me please?

But I know where you hail from Evi....in the system - you have to think like a snake. I understand that, believe me, I do. I think it's called - "knowing your enemy".

August 4, 2003
12:54 pm
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Ladeska,
The more I hear from you, the more I like you. I wish everyone had your insite. Unfortunately we live in a word with too many people who can't it.

I guess I love this web site because there is not mouse and cat game. Arwen knows her family and will have to use what ever technique will best achive the truth she desires.

As most of you know I came to this web site due to some personal problems going on with me. I constantly wonder why I have so much control at work and can see so much with others and have such a hard time when the ball is my court. You all have sparked something inside of me and I have grown in such a short time to trust (which has never been easy for me) and respect the advice from all of you. So far everyone seems to have the best of others in mind and through personal experiences shine a different light and new insight to things. Once again I find myself having to say thank you.

I wish we could all meet face to face and have a good feel good session. hahaha. Lots of love to all. gotta go.

August 4, 2003
12:55 pm
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Wow. This is almost more than I can take in all at once...

I remember letting my sister babysit my kids, and telling myself they were "safe" because in my mind the abuse didn't exist. It was shut off, behind a brick wall. It wasn't until I got older, and I allowed the repressed memories to surface that I actually began to get proactive about what situations I allowed my kids to be in.

I believe that my parents have a lot of shit walled up. I don't think they have had the ability to look behind the walls. No matter how many times I bring it up, no matter what questions I ask, to them nothing my sister did should be a big deal. But they only know about the things that went on when we were kids, and have chosen to write it off as "child's play". I have never talked to them about the other things that went on. I don't see the point. And right now, in all honesty, I don't have the strength. About all I can manage right now is to get out of bed in the morning and try not to cut or get too suicidal.

I feel strongly that my father was not a perpetrator. Believe me, I have turned this over and over and over in my mind along with my sisters and it's just not there. I think he knew on some level how we felt about Zeke and why, but because of his own issues he was not able to deal with it.

When I was about 7, me and a friend were walking home from a birthday party. We were crossing an empty lot behind a little church. A man came walking toward us on the path and I noticed his penis was hanging out of the front of his pants. I said something to my friend as he passed us, and we were giggling. We didn't get it. A few minutes later the guy was standing at his truck. He yelled at us to come over to him. He said he needed help. I asked what he wanted and he said "I have something stuck on me and I need you to help pull it off of me." I looked at my friend and quietly told her to run home as fast as she could, and not to stop for anything, told her I was going to do the same. We took off.

When I got home, it was supper time. I told my sister, the one closest to me in age, about what happened and she said "You have to tell daddy." I didn't want to because I felt embarrassed, but she made me tell. Took me by the arm, walked me to the couch, and stood there with her arms crossed over her chest and said, "Go ahead. Tell him what just happened." So I told him. He got up, put on his coat, and said he was going to the police station. Only recently I learned, when I broached this subject with my dad, that he hadn't gone straight to the police. He'd actually gone straight to the church to try to find the guy. I'm glad he didn't find him because I think he would have killed him. I know he would have put him in the hospital. Growing up, my dad was "little" in stature, and he got picked on a lot, so he learned how to fight. He got where he could kick anyone's ass, and everyone knew it so they stopped messing with him.

Also, my dad always had some "extreme" ideas about sexuality regarding us kids. I remember he did not allow us to be out of our rooms unless we were fully clothed, and I don't mean not naked, I mean a robe over your pajamas, that sort of thing. I also remember when I was about 10 I went to give him a kiss good night. He told me it was time for me to stop that. He said I was "too big" to be kissing him good night and it was time to stop. Well, I'm just not built like that, so I kept on giving him a kiss good night, and he kept on telling me I was too old, and it wasn't right, and I kept on doing it, and so on and so forth until he finally gave up. When I wanted to hug him, I hugged him. When I wanted to give him a kiss, I did. Pretty soon the whole damn family was being affectionate towards my parents and that's the way we are now. I see that as a pretty good thing.

I think I might have said this before, but when I was in therapy, my therapist discussed the possibility that my dad had perped on my sister. I took that in, I think, with an open mind, and started to explore the possibilities, but like I said, it's just not there. I do believe that something happened to him. It might have been Zeke. Even though he was younger than my dad, he might have been stronger. But most likely it was some other male relative, or someone did something to his sister and he knows about it. I don't know. I think my parents know that someone perped on my oldest sister, and that they tried to protect her the best way they could and not upset the family at the same time.

I think they could have handled things much better, kept us away from Zeke, but they didn't. I understand why they didn't because I understand why I kept quiet about my oldest sister for so long. I forgive them. I forgive myself. I have chosen a different path and can't undo the one already trodden by me and my family. I can only look back and know that there are other paths to take, and try to teach this to my children.

It is so much easier NOT to believe, you know? If you don't believe, then your blinds stay on, and you just keep plugging away, doing your every day shit. If you allow yourself to KNOW, I mean really take it all in, then there is this whole can of worms to deal with--your issues, your kids issues, guilt over the past, fear of the future, a thousand "what if's", etc. It's more than most people can deal with. We, here, are an elite group who choose to see, believe, and act on what we know is true. It would be nice if we could force everyone to be accountable, but we can't. We can only do what is within our control to do and leave the rest with the people who own it. For me, it's the only way I can find a little bit of peace.

Still loving this thread, and learning so much from all of you. Thank you all so much for the things you are allowing me to take part in!

Love,

Arwen

August 4, 2003
1:58 pm
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Okay Arwen......I hear ya. I really do. I think you are doing the very best that you can and that things have gotten better within your family and I feel alot better about your father now, I really do. The whole thing is just so debilitating...the poison is just so lethal with how it touches everyone, once it gets started.

You have triumphed very well and my hat is off to you. I am the way I am in the stance I take and I'm okay with that because it's needed. Just like it's needed for other people to be gifted in other ways and to have other approaches. I just have a real anger - mainly for the pain that you have all gone through. And at some point you have to concentrate on "this minute, this day and the present", make cognitive choices and move on. You can only spend so much time digging into the past. I understand that as well.

Sorry if I upset you with anything I wrote. I'm a bit too passionate sometimes about some things. But, I'd rather be that way than lukewarm. I guess it's a chosen path because being passive - is how everyone was around me and I almost died while they were examining their navels or whatever they were doing...

I just look at things a bit different now. While I do cut people slack to some degree, I don't cut them as much slack as I used to. I think everyone here has good points, we just come from different places, mindsets and lives. But one thing for sure - we are on the same team. (smile) I'm just so very proud of you....I really, really am. You're doing so well and have a fantastic mind and heart. I'll stop going off like a bottle rocket now...."promise". Just know that it's because "I care".

August 4, 2003
2:59 pm
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Ladeska,
You better stay on the soap box, that is what we love about you!!!!

Oh what the heck, group hug.

see ya

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