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battered women's syndrome
January 21, 2003
2:11 am
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I've been researching battered women's syndrome, as apparently my attorney, therapist, and the court, thinks I suffer from it. I'd like to heal from it. I'm confused. I suffer? I'm helpess? I have a "syndrome?" I filed for divorce 5 years ago. Launched a successful career which I've great pasion for. My kids are honor students. Built a social life, complete with friends, aquaintances, activities, and a fiance. Fell in love. Maintain my home, a 4 bedroom house with a built in redwood hot tub and a yard that I love to work in, sit in, fall asleep in my swing in. Learned all about love and healthy relationships. How? Well, it's really not that difficult, I tell people. Once I realized that calling the police, pleading to an attorney, telling a judge, begging for help, was a completely useless expenditure of time, money and energy, I focused on living my life. I cannot control my ex's behavior, only my response to it. The bullets with my name carved in them, the romantic Scripture, some e-mails, a protective order from when we were married, these things, and maybe some others, I put in a box if I remembered to do so. That way, if in fact my ex were to carry out his threat to put me 6 feet under, he'd be convicted and my kids wouldn't be raised with the man who killed their mother. And then I went on with the day. Well a few months ago I hired an attorney to handle a simple child support case as my ex clearly stated we would be in court ever year, in October, and was following through, so I didn't wanna deal with it. Figured he can fight with my attorney all he wants. Have a blast- I'm going to work-you go to court. I hate it there anyway. My attoreny went bonkers. Now everybody's going bonkers. My ex has recently been charged with felony stalking. Hey, I thought this was domestic violence survivorhood. I asked, begged, paid for, researched, help. Figured nobody has any answers kuz there aren't any. Nobody helps kuz nobody can. And now, I find out I'm suffering from "learned helplessness." EXCUSE ME? My ex is helpless- he can't stop. The system is helpless- they can't stop him. Me-I focused my energy in a positive, productive direction. How dare anybody tell me I suffer from anything other than a persistent will to survive. How dare any researcher tell me why I stayed, and why the abuse continued. The answer is clear. Obvious. Embedded in the trembling voice of EVERY survivor. I was afraid my kids or I would be killed. I still am. People like my kids and myself are killed everyday, regardless of the actions we take to protect our kids and ourselves. And there is nothing, NOTHING anybody can do to stop my ex if and when he chooses to do just that. Does anybody, ANYBODY, who is NOT a survivor, get it?

January 21, 2003
3:32 am
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Well, 'labels' are everywhere. We label cats, dogs and gorillas as 'animals' because doing so makes life easier to navigate. Other labels (such as 'battered women's syndrome') are largely legal, political or both. You DON'T need to accept them if you don't want to and in some sense, as you have expressed, it is destructive if you do so. There is in fact a trend towards suggesting that someone HAS a particular problem, rather than suggesting that the person IS the problem (ie instead of an 'alcoholic' they may be 'a person that has a problem with alcohol'). Semantics, yes, but probably worthwhile for maintaining a person's self-esteem.

You are right - NO ONE can understand your situation as well as you do. YOU know the fundamentals of your life better than anyone, but is it wrong that people have tried to help you? Is it wrong that there are researchers out there who invest time and energy into researching a series of psychological processes that are typically associated with domestic violence in an attempt to help those who are either perpertrating or suffering the violence to break away from the cycle of abuse? Is it wrong that there are people (judges, police, lawyers, domestic violence shelters) who try, in spite of what limited means and power they have, to help protect men, women and children that are affected by domestic violence and abuse? You're also right in that everyone is in charge of their OWN behaviour. No one can control your ex - no one but himself. He owns his behaviour and if he has it set in his mind that he wishes to harm you or your children, then chances are he will try to do so. But surely it is nicer knowing that at least SOME there are some protective measures, some knowledge that may help prevent that action, or at the very least make it just that little bit harder? Just that 'little bit harder' might be enough to stop him from being able to follow through with his plans.

Domestic violence happens to a wide range of people - rich, poor, young, old, healthy, sick, white, black, asian etc. Having abuse perpertrated against you doesn't make you a 'bad' person. From your post, I don't think you are weak; I also don't think that you are helpless. Yes, labels are bad, but often with 'labels', comes knowledge and knowledge is the key. Without knowledge, history is destined to repeat itself. You don't need to accept labels if you don't want to, but it is still beneficial to learn from mistakes of the past (yours and the world at large).

I hope that you and your children stay safe.

January 21, 2003
5:32 am
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Big Hugs to you!
More and more we hear in the press, women and children being murdered by their husbands and ex-husbands. How could anyone murder their children, let alone a mate. They are sick. They need help.
I don't have any answers, Just lots of compassion to what you must have gone through, are going through, and your future.
I pray for your safety.

January 21, 2003
6:49 am
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Got it! Mine doesn't sound 1/8 of what you are dealing with, but the responses are the same. So they come back with dealing with him,and they can't deal with him, and its you? gotta love the snake he found a good attny ! Is he a cop? Does that mean your not carrying your weight ? Not to mention the mommy track is real, emotional games , slow you to a stop, but learned helpness ? Ok so pay her !!!!

January 21, 2003
11:23 am
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Hi free-

Is this a label given for legal purposes? So that you and your children will be entitled to more: money, support, services?

Otherwise you don't sound like you're very helpless. Maybe a legal ploy, but it sounds like you are making your way through life. Hate the label but love your life.

Sounds like you are in control to me...

Jenny

January 21, 2003
7:21 pm
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Hi free,
I looked up BWS on the net, and it is used as a defense if you murder your husband? Did I misunderstand that he was threatening to kill you?
Just recently, in the State of Oregon, a man is going to go to trial for alledgedly killing his wife and three children. This has nothing to do with Battered wife syndrome unless his wife would use this as her defense for killing him first...

Please explain more why you are researching BWS?

January 21, 2003
10:44 pm
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Wow. That was alot of info alot of responses, and alot of questions. Leads to alot of thinking. The easiest question to answer is why I'm researching Battered Women's Syndrome. If it's a part of who I am, then I want to understand it. If it's the cause of my current struggle with my ex, then I want to overcome it. I want to be free. I've found that awareness is power, power to make healthy decisions, power to be productive versus self destructive. Would I use Battered Women's Syndrome as a defense for killing my ex? Jimminy, I can't kill Daddy Long Legs in the house, I put them outside. I'm sure as heck not gonna kill the father of my children. I desperately want to know a life free of violence, like I see so many others enjoy. I'm angry (as if no one can tell). I'm frustrated. I feel like I'm not being heard. I don't need a "syndrome" to explain to others why I've reacted the way I have. I am perfectly capable of answering those questions myself! I did not behave like the rats did. There IS no escape available. That's why my ex has been charged with felony stalking. I protected him when we were married and have tried to avoid confrontation with him because I'm afraid he will kill us. I was able to divorce him because at that point the thought of death was preferred to staying with him. It was a blind, desperate,leap. I'm not accustomed to being helped. I begged a judge a year and a half ago. He told to me to see a doctor and get medication. I had an EPO when we were married. I called the police station to vacate it while my ex held a gun to my head. I thought for sure they'd send a car. Nope. I used police escorts to pick up my kids from visitation. Twice. Then the cops told us we'd have to exchange at the police station. He never showed. Cop called him. Told me to go home kuz my ex was going to bring them home. And he did. right up to my door. He's supposed to stay curbside. He laughed and asked if he could come in. I could always call the cops, he said. He wrote "the rapist" in the memo of a support check, sent a bullet with my name on it, dropped a knife in front of me while picking up the kids as he moved 10 doors down after a kick out order, killed my rabbit- I pleaded with my divorce attorney- she wrote his attorney a letter telling him to stop. Just after we separated (it's been 5 years) I called the cops one morning kuz he was banging on my door and screaming- he was supposed to drop the kids off at our neighbors. Now he says I called the cops and said he had a gun. I never said that. I was just scared. I don't think I need to go on. I think the felony charge says enough. Cops don't want to deal with dv. Judges don't want to hear about it anymore. Nobody has any answers for victims because there aren't any. And that's frustrating. What do I want? I want a judge, cops, my attorney, THE SYSTEM to accept the fact that I have done everything within my power, and whether they did or not, they have not been able to help. They have not responded to my pleas. They did not intervene. I adapted. I want to hear it said that I am in no way responsible for my victimization, that I have responded understandably, appropriately, and responsibly. Nobody asks the people in a bank robbery why they did as the robbers said, or the teller why she gave up the money, or the hostages on a plane why they did as the hijackers said, or the clerk at the store why she gave all the money to the guy with the gun, or the owners of the car why he/she jumped out and "let" the carjacker have it.........Yet everybody asks why the battered woman behaves as she does......everybody around me asks now, why I've behaved as I have.....even after I've answered. I'm researching BWS because I want to understand and overcome. And how can I, when nobody does? Not a good feeling.

January 22, 2003
1:49 am
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If he is doing all these things, I find it very hard to believe that a court would allow him to see those kids. Might I suggest you find a different lawyer? The one you have sucks if she can't get results with the hard evidence you've presented her.

Just curious, but you've made a few references to how you've "behaved". What behavior in particular is being questioned?

January 22, 2003
10:41 am
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Hi Free,
Thank you for explaining further.
I did more reading on stalking laws....
I understand you now.

You want support because your ex-husband's actions have created so much havoc in your life.

You are not a helpless victim but still suffer because of his actions.

I validate you.
You have gone through alot, and have not played the victim but have made something of your life in spite of his threats, harassments, and behavior.

I commend you. You have remained sane in an insane situation.

Government, police, court systems, and attorneys ignorance, and mine too,
have caused you much resentment and frusturation because we couldn't help you. Thankfully, they are finally doing something for you.

Do you think that the Felony Stalking will stick? How long will he be imprisioned if found quilty?
Have you considered moving to a state where the Stalking Laws are much harsher?

Hugs to you FREE....he has tried to make you his prisioner and you are trying so hard to be free of him.
Is the child support fight worth it if you have to continually go to court every year. I raised two daughters without child support and I know it can be done. It's an option to mull over.

Having said all that....I feel ready to offer you humane support for you and a safe place to vent your feelings about what you feel and think. God Bless.

January 22, 2003
12:50 pm
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Geez Free~

Can you move out of state? It would be really good if you could yank his visitation, move without notifying him (let the government pull the child support, if you get any), and if possible do something like witness protection and change your name.

I can understand you not wanting to be a statistic here. Have you ever threatened him in any way? He does sound pretty crazy and, if you've always just defended yourself, I'd want this guy locked up for life. Have you ever done anything that the battered woman syndrome label would protect you for (like burning his house down or something)?

I'm not negating your anger here at all, so please do not take offense. It sounds like a horrible situation. I am not sure I could be as strong as you seem to be in the same situation.

January 22, 2003
10:18 pm
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I'm angry. I'm not certain as to exactly what. Trying to figure it out. The phrase "learned helplessness" is a trigger for me. It triggers intense emotion. I'm not sure why. Maybe someone here can help, let me give a brief history. We were married for 9 years. The first 5 or so were mainly verbal and emotional abuse. Then I started counseling as a rape survivor. This exacerbated things in my house,as I came to no longer be able to tolerate screaming, yelling, him getting all drunk, . He went to counseling with me oh 5 or 6 times. He hated it. It made things worse. He started to destroy things and it let to hitting and pushing me when I yelled back and did things he said not to, like go to the beach, or counseling without him, quit work to stay at home with our kids, went shopping- did what I wanted to. I asked for a divorce. He was insistent that I would die before we would be divorced. It got bad and I really thought I was hurt one night as he had knocked the wind out of me and I called 911. I think this went on for a few years- it started with pushing and got worse. There are many calls to the plice when he didn't pull the phone out first. I had talked with an attorney. I had called the women's shelter a couple times. I talked a little bit with my family. I think maybe I hid how bad things were. It took time before I began to share what was going on, and I shared in pieces. These few years sometimes blurr together timewise. It's weird. Like right now, I think I'm overwhelmed at the whole picture, and things are blurring, skewing, changing places, and mixing. I can't seem to go from the beginning of my marriage to the present time in one sitting. I hate that. It's a PTSD thing.
It is a felony for me to leave the state with our kids. I've never done anything to him- I prefer to avoid confrontation, turn the other cheek. I guess I grew with this pholosophy ingrained in my head, that it takes two to fight, so if I don't fight, and turn away, then there can be no fight. My family is tight, I've 3 brothers and 2 awesome folks who are still married and in love. They live in another state. My oldest brother recently told me that turning the other cheek is only good when it will prevent the conflict from escalating. (Guess I missed that part growing up.) But this behavior (me turning away) is exactly what my ex thrives on, me running away, me being scared, me giving in to his demands, me trying to make things okay, to fix things, and bring peace. My family says turning away from him and ignoring him is like trying that with the Taliban. Do you think they are right?
And why do you think I am so angry? And who do you think I'm angry at? Should all of my anger be directed towards my ex? Does it sound like I do in fact have battered women's syndrome? Please answer honestly without worrying about "padding" your answers. I need you to. I worked through rape (far enough to be a speaker and advocate),and I'll work through this, with the help of others like you all here. Thanks

January 23, 2003
1:02 am
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There is a recognised 'pattern of violence' in Domestic Violence (DV) situations. Briefly...(and I'll use 'man' as the perpertrator and 'women' as the 'victim' because that is the typical situation).

1. There is a fight and 'violence' occurs - neither partner may think it was inappropriate, either or both parties may think that the violence was 'deserved'.

2. Violence happens again - Violence may increase in severity and frequency. Different types of violence may be used.

3. The woman realises something is 'wrong' - she becomes depressed and anxious when she realises there are problems in the relationship, but she belives she is responsible for her partner's happiness and her family's stability. AND she also believes that either she is responsible for the violence (ie she provoked it) or something else is responsible for the violence and there is a solution to the problem or that it will change in time.

4. The women tries/wants to tell someone - This is difficult because the man becomes charming and respectable to most other people and the women doubts her judgement. She has kept the secret so long others might ask why she hasn't left before if it's so bad.

5. The women tries harder - to please him, to not provoke his violence, to make things the way he wants, to work out what she is doing wrong.

6. The abuse continues or escalates in spite of these efforts.

7. She identifies the problem as his violence - she may make a decisions that she has done as much as she can or a crisis occurs which she will not tolerate.

8. The woman decides she wants to leave.

9. The woman leaves - usually during a crisis. Often she feels guilt at having failed as a wife and mother, she's worried about what others think and fears living alone.

10. The man pursues - tries to 'buy' her back (flowers, chocolates, attentiveness etc).

11. The women wants to believe he is genuine - she feels valued and needed at last. She feels guilt at having left him and has pressures to go back home (eg from children, money, housing problems, physical and emotional isolation, attitudes to seperated mothers etc).

12. The woman goes home - friends and familes believe everything is alright or she must be crazy after all.

13. The cycle starts again.

Often with DV there is initially verbal or emotional abuse - eg yelling or controlling or physical abuse or put downs (you're stupid; you're fat, you're ugly - so the women thinks that no one else will want her or that she is not 'smart' enough to do anything about the violence. Over time if you're told it often enough, you can start to believe it). There is isolation - cut off from friends or family (ie people that might be able to see the signs or offer support - if they are cut off long enough often there is resentment on their part so they won't help when they recognise there is a problem). There may also be financial isolation (ie not allowed to have money, not allowed to have a car so you can't prepare an 'escape'). Basically with DV the situation typically sets itself so that the women has no where else to go and no one else to turn to. She's trapped. As the pattern of violence indicates, women may leave, but invariably will return for a number of reasons (fear, financial, stigma, children, hopes that it will work 'this time' etc). Unless there is help for the perpertator to deal with the violence, the cycle is unlikely to ever just stop. People who haven't suffered DV don't understand that. They can't fathom the mindset behind why women will return to what they know is more abuse. I think that's what the point of 'BWS' - which I belive is essentially developed as a legal term for defence to explain why a women who suffered long term DV, but didn't leave, ends up killing her partner. I think the argument is, is that they put up with the abuse because it was too difficult to break, but then one day they just 'snapped' and saw a way to get their own back or it was in self defence. I think even if a women kills her husband in his sleep it can be argued that she was doing so in 'self-defence' if there is evidence of a long term abusive relationship.

January 23, 2003
2:49 pm
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free~

Of course you're angry! Why wouldn't you be? Not only did you endure your husband's abuse, but you were raped and obviously have had your share of violence. It certainly can't seem to be that life has dealt with you fairly concerning violent behavior of others.

PTSD is to be expected. But your anger at this 'label' does appear to be out of proportion, like you are using the phrase 'learned helplessness' to focus some of your rage towards other people. You don't sound helpless now. Maybe you react in a somewhat non-confrontational matter (so you don't get your head bashed in), but many people would.

Squeezles has had a lot more experience dealing directly with DV and other trauma situations.

It's just my opinion that you are really taking this phrase and using it to vent out other frustrations. Tell me what you think about it...

Jenny

January 24, 2003
11:41 am
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Funny thing about DV and physical / verbal abuse... is we are stupid enough to go back time and again, they pull at our heart strings. Deep inside we WANT to believe them, but the truth is...its just the same old dance...turn OFF the music...I am trying to..he keeps turning it on...told him I won;t dance anymore...but he wants just this one LAST chance to show me a the Real HIM, but I already know the real him...both sides...you love the good and HATE the bad...Learned helplessness...a foolish phrase...I call it a survival technique..how the heck are you supposed to be the physical equivalent of your mate?? Given sexual dimorphism..they tend to be larger and heavier and stronger..so , helplessness is not a learned behavior..to fight back gets you kicked around even worse...I know, but then you do crack and go CRAZY...and his eyes you want to eat them, and you very nearly get them, then he SEES you are not their to be a toy , but then its OVER...GAME OVER..at least for me...but now its just the damn dance again, the presents, the flowers and the promises...but I know the truth. Please don;t let me be sucked in again. I am NOT helpless, and I sure as hell NEVER learned it anywhere. Survival...pure and simple.

January 24, 2003
6:07 pm
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Well. What a roller coaster. Now I think I'm getting sad or something. Yeah, maybe BWS applies, the cycle is certainly there. I'm not angry about the "fairness" of the violence I've suffered. I've suffered very little in comparison to many people on this earth. I think the anger comes from the fact that I can't seem to get away from him, and what he's done to me and my life, what he's done and does to our kids, and the ineffectiveness of the legal system, even though I'm sure they care and wish they could help. It makes me angry that I divorced him 5 years ago and am still dragged into a court room, still threatened, etc. I'm angry at myself for ever having kids with him. My kids didn't have a choice as to who their father was, but I did. And I picked a terrible one. I feel very guilty. And angry with myself. I can't seem to find a way to make their childhood stable, loving, and safe, like mine was, because I chose my ex to father them. And then instead of moving home when I could have, stayed because I was foolish enough to believe our kids needed their father in their lives. Now I can't go back. And so deeply wish I could. It is very difficult to see my children suffer. And be able to do so little. Me- well I'd be okay if only my kids didn't have to suffer. The only attachment to my ex is through our kids and he uses it. It just sucks.

January 24, 2003
9:29 pm
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Free , he uses the only thing he has left to hurt you with,the kids. He is a monster, you are out. Don;t beat yourself up. How could you have known the future with him??? Impossible, but you are on your way to building a better one now. Be proud of that. It is soo hard to break away. Be proud.

January 25, 2003
3:30 am
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Thanks Jade. I really needed that about now. I'm not sure who's better at beating me up: me or him. Maybe once I can figure out how to stop beating myself up, I will truly be free. I think this is an answer to one of the many questions I don't know how to ask.

January 25, 2003
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Sometimes I feel like I am kicking myself, for being such a fool to fall in love with an abuser, but then that was NOT who we fell in love with was it?? That came later....and if you are married, and have children the web is soo much tighter and harder to break away from. I was /am fortunate as I have neither married him, and then when I was pregnant, was the first time he hit me, the choice was made for me. I would not do that to a child. I knew enough NOT to think I can change him(11 years older than I), it was just too psycho and he already had 2 children with his ex. SO, not a choice I am proud of, but one that in my heart was the only RIGHT one for me. YOu on the other hand had it 1000X more difficult, and you got out, and it is still hard...EMOTIONALLY...of course. BWS, not sure what that really is, other than the foolish desire to see the good and gloss over the bad in ones partner. Sighhhhhh,.....no great thougths here today, he threatened suicide....so now I wear the guilt if he does anything foolish. And he still wants me back, and I don't want to go back. ...another damn drama...wish I had wings...

January 25, 2003
1:28 pm
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Hi Jade

Threatening suicide is a control tactic. My therapist asked me how I would feel if my ex actually carried through, and I told him responsible, guilty, horrible. The appropriate response is anger. They have no right to threaten it, or to do it. Right now, if he did it, I'd probably be relieved. That's an awful thing to say, but after this came threats to me and my family and just a huge escalation. It may be wise for you to minimize contact with him as much as possible. In his head you're the cause of old hurt and anger. Good luck.

January 25, 2003
1:28 pm
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Hi Jade

Threatening suicide is a control tactic. My therapist asked me how I would feel if my ex actually carried through, and I told him responsible, guilty, horrible. The appropriate response is anger. They have no right to threaten it, or to do it. Right now, if he did it, I'd probably be relieved. That's an awful thing to say, but after this came threats to me and my family and just a huge escalation. It may be wise for you to minimize contact with him as much as possible. In his head you're the cause of old hurt and anger. Good luck.

January 27, 2003
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Our situations are not identical but here's a condensed version of my story.

After 12 years of abuse I finally got fed up and asked my ex to leave. He threatened suicide in front of our children. My response was "okay just make sure you're outside and I don't have to clean up the mess"...I felt guilty about saying that but I was determined that he realize that he is the sick one, not me. I also pointed out that that action would prove that he was the crazy one to the community we lived in. He cared about that part.

That was 3 years ago. I'm now remarried to a most wonderful man after living with an emotional/verbal abuser for 12 years. Like you, I tried everything to make the first marriage work. My ex just kept on abusing. I finally asked him to leave, picked up the pieces of my life and started living a nice life without him.

I do have symptoms of learned helplessness even to this day. I'm overly sensitive and a parent pleaser. I would go out of may way to make sure everything was perfect in our home. He tore me to shreds with his words and actions. He hit me once, not too hard but hard enough to make me understand that he was in control. I got counseling after I told him to get out. My counselors validated my feelings and helped me to see what was happening. They counseled with my oldest daughter who had been exposed to the verbal abuse. My lawyer had the ammunition to fight him for custody and restrict his visitation. He finally realized that he couldn't win when I moved out of the state and didn't have to allow him to see the children unless he could control his anger and his words.

My children continue to tell me everything that happens at his house. If he ever raises his voice to them, I remind him that he will lose visitation rights altogether. That's enough to keep him in check. (He's also remarried to another control freak. They fume and fight but she doesn't give in the way I did.) Just like you, I fought it and won. You have won the battle over and over by not allowing him to control you. My ex told me if I left the state, he would charge me with kidnapping. So I said okay and lived in the same town for over a year. I talked with my lawyer and she said I could move anywhere I wanted. She would fight the fight with me and for me to protect my family. It sounds like to me that you have every right to move far away from him. Get another job in another state. Get another lawyer. Move away to where visitation with the father is not possible. You have done everything possible to allow him to be humane and he has done nothing but torment you and your children.

You sound like a very caring mother who has accomplished a great deal in the midst of abuse. You will survive this awful ordeal because you have proven that you will not give up.

Your ex is mean and vicious.If the town where you live will not provide the protection you need from your ex, no one will fault you for moving. It took me over a year to find a lawyer who would work with me and for me and my children.

You do what is necessary to protect you and your children.

As for the learned helplessness, my husband of 2 years is so good at pointing out to me that I have to make certain choices and he won't do it for me. He insists on giving me power and control over my life. He validates my feelings, even when we both know they are unreasonable. My insecurity level is high. He has told me everyday since we were married, "whatever you need, ask me, I'll do my best to provide it." He loves me and he shows it everyday. He reinforces the good feelings and minimizes those bad ones. He doesn't allow me to control him. It's a struggle that we fight together. Our life is not perfect. You can read about my other struggles on this site. My ex still gets out of hand occassionally but not like it used to be. I'm still scared of him at times. I still have nightmares every once in a while. But I feel safe 95% of the time.

I hope you realize that there is a wonderful life waiting for you and your children, where you don't have to live in fear.

One suggestion: Keep a journal of your struggles as it can provide insight as to why you do certain things, what triggers certain emotions and so forth. My journal helps me figure out what I'm thinking and why. It can also be used in court as documentation of events that have occurred.

Sorry for the long post. It is meant as encouragement. You are strong and not alone in your struggle. Lots of love to you.

January 27, 2003
10:38 am
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Free,
Thanks for directing me to this site. I briefly read through some of the messages posted on this thread, some great info. and very supportive. My only problem with BWS is that their seems to be a clinical diagnoses for woman who suffer from the abuse. I cannot seem to find a clinical diagnosis for the person who causes us to suffer. I've looked, my exes seem to fit 4 to 8 different profiles for mental illness. It would seem to me that we are labeled, however the problem is not.

learyll

January 27, 2003
7:09 pm
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Anonymous
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Well I'm no psychologist but think a good, descriptive diagnosis for these men is "obsessive compulsive butthead syndrome with depressive, dependent, and violent features". Does that work for you?

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