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at a crossroad...which way to go
September 17, 2006
12:06 pm
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honeyb
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thanks you doubleloss, I will get that book for sure. I am so overwhelmed by something you said...
'you'll make your own decision, you'll deal with the consequences and be sure we'll be here to support you.' You so know me! how? None of my friends or family do? Most of them have turned their back on me because of him..because I have not been able to let go..I turn loose of my grip just a bit, then at the last minute I can't let go..he will say or do something endearing or he will give me that look. Then I get so angry with myself for being so weak...my mind is like a ping pong match with no ending! I think of the great moments we have shared - most would consider were simple things - but those are our best times..nothing over the top-then the other foot falls and I remember the nights of being afraid to fall asleep..worrying that he may choke on his own vomit..I remember holding his head out of the toilet..having to clean him and the mess up...I remember one night he was so close to death, his breathing became very slow..I would shake him to get some reaction from him to be sure he was still alive..I was scared out of my wits. I had only seen him drunk a time or two at this point. I spent the whole night with my hand on his chest so that I could be certain he was still breathing. I remember that for the whole time he lived in my house, he didn't work..I supported him..I went to work when I was ill. I remember having to struggle to make ends meet - sometimes not having enough money to buy milk because he had stolen the money from my purse. I remember last fall I was really ill with an upper respiratory infection (I have chronic lung problems) and it was sleating outside..so cold..I had worked all day with a fever (couldn't afford not to go - the rent was due and the car payment overdue)..when I came home from work he was drunk and was rearranging decorations in the yard (Halloween)..I went in to take a hot bath and to be warm for the first time that day. He burst into the bathroom ranting because I was in the tub! Arguing it was insane that anyone would take a bath to get warm - I was plotting something, he just knew it!! He insisted I get out of the tub and come out to see his works of art outside- no matter I was in a nightgown and wet hair (he said if I took time to towel off, the magic moment would be gone)...I told him I was sick but he argued that I only cared about myself, it didn't matter to me how hard he worked on setting up these decorations for the neighborhood kids..
Funny thing is, the first time we put the decorations out together and had a wonderful time....
Now, that I've reminded myself of just a fraction of the agony, how stupid can I be to think this has really changed??? He's been sober for 3 and half months - I've been sober for 45 years.....but the thing that is really making me angry is because I know, I KNOW he will find a way to make me melt and rationalize that somehow this was my fault..this was my doing.............thank you doubleloss and everyone for being here always, because God knows I do and will need you.....

September 17, 2006
1:11 pm
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wazz
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Quite simply - isn't it better to be where you are now (capable of questioning this decision) than where you - in your heart - KNOW you will be once you have made it in his favour?

September 17, 2006
1:29 pm
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doubleloss
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honey, many of us have been where you are, we've been messed around with our heads, sense of self, decision making abilities, and the way to recovery is soooo hard, and so painful, (from codependency). Really think about why it is that you are willing to give up everything (from money, family and friends - to peace, dignity and self respect), the answers might help you with your decision. I know I know, those good times, the hope the dreams - that is what he hold on to. Please take care, keep posting.

September 17, 2006
7:01 pm
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honeyb
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yes, he does hold onto the wonderful plans we had and he holds them over my head..he often tells me that I am breaking my promise by not sticking with him - no matter how much I explain that things changed when he cheated with alcohol..I fight myself to not 'dream'..that's too painful...not too long ago I told him I was going to go for counseling and he was not happy to say the least...I wonder if this is because he is afraid that I will wise up? He is so convincing sometimes - I can't help but think he doesn't even realize how manipulative he is, how controling..he's done this for most of his adult life...he keeps reminding me that he has changed in these past 3 months, but can you really change a lifetime of behavior that quickly?..he says I havent given him a chance since he's been sober..he can come up with a million reasons why I shouldnt turn him away..he always brings up the "LOVE" thing, but love isn't always enough...his physical abuse was composed of shoving me against the wall, pulling me out of the truck by my hair..holding me down..and that may seem minimal, but it doesnt to me....it started with verbal abuse and mind games..it just seems that maybe this is how it does start..and grows.. he came from a family of domestic abuse..his father against his mother, both abused him...otherwise, he is a beautiful, spectacular man but then he goes into a 'mental mode' that does frighten me..usually it's more like a spoiled kid, but there is something that I fear..love/fear..what a combo..I recall once when he was drunk telling me that he was borderline paranoid schizophrenic..I haven't had any contact with him for 2 days in a row and I can feel a difference in myself - I don't feel like I am spinning in circles as much..I can't help but wonder why he didn't contact me (yesterday at work is the only time this weekend he could have)..hmmm, probably means he will make up for it tomorrow!!!! I didnt go to the family counseling sessions this morning because they are held at the treatment center where he is living in the sober living portion. I didnt go because I knew he would check to see if I was there, then put on a front for the counselors there...he tries very hard to make it appear all is well with us...another of his deceptive games...

September 17, 2006
7:07 pm
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honeyb
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oh..Thanks so much again doubleloss..always keeping my head up! and Wazz, you are right..I am feeling 'stronger' today...and this is a better place , even when I am confused etc..at least I am safe...thanks , honeyb

September 17, 2006
7:57 pm
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hi honey.
there is apost here about what is DENIAL, if I find it I'll bump it for you to read it. Gosh, do I know what you are talking about.

You also know the harm this person is doing to you and you are allowing it. My ex calls that "holding the remote". your bf has the remote control, knows how to push your buttons and manipulates you, that is not love. I hope you gain the strenght to get that remote back and save yourself from so much more heartache that IS going to happen.

By the way, i believe that a man should never, ever under any circumstance has any right to push or shove. let alone pulling you out the car by your hair, my friend, he is not only an alcoholic but an abuser. I hope you buy that book, it will help you.

you know what you need to do, just need to do it, and i'll be around to cheer you up, support you and read you when all %%$%^* hits the fan. And also, I will be paying attention to my own advice, it might help me.

((((honey)))))

September 17, 2006
8:08 pm
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elizabeth anne
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I am beginning to understand a little more to your situation as my ex had problems with his ex ex, where she was an alcoholic and abused him...

Maybe you are a little more hesitant now, knowing the consequenses of getting back together.. Maybe you have had some sort of peace away from the abuse and now realize the difference..

In the same way, perhaps you are still attracted and somewhat addictive to a manipulation that outpowers your real sense of the situation... I think you understand that he is manipulative in your head, but your heart is still wanting to think, maybe he has changed, maybe I should give him another chance, he is the love of my life, maybe it will be different this time, after all he is sober now...

But then your head says look what he has done to me in the past, how can I trust him...What will happen if he goes back to his old ways... I guess that is why they call it a rollercoaster ride... JMHO I think you know better in your head this may just be a temporary fix and that it may take much longer for the action to speak louder than the words...

September 17, 2006
9:01 pm
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StronginHim77
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I want to share this with you. It might help you take a stronger stance on staying away from this man:

In a recent email, a reader asked the following question:
"Why do I continue to feel love for this person that abused me? I DON'T miss the abuse, but I do miss the good times we had... I still cry sometimes because I miss what I thought we had. Is this normal?"

Yes, it is very "normal." In fact, most people leaving abusive relationships feel the same way. Many, at least initially, have a hard time staying away from a person they know has hurt them. What is going on?

Loss of a Relationship

When you give up a partner, you give up a lifestyle as well. You give up shared friends, shared activities, as well give up the comfort of being half of a couple. You knew there was someone around; maybe you saw each other or chatted daily. You knew you would have something to do or someone to be with on Saturday night. Even if you stayed home alone on Saturday night, you knew someone was there. You had a partner. Your life changes when you break up with your partner. All of this takes some getting used to. It takes time to regroup and rebuild.

Saturday night...what's a person to do? Not only will you mourn the loss of partner status with its shared friends and activities, but you are also likely to experience the void of the Back-to-Square-One Syndrome. Got to start all over again with the trials and tribulations most partnership-ready singles dread: meeting new people via singles bars, blind dates, email; not meeting new people; dating, dating and more endless dating...

When you do finally meet a prospective partner, you must go through the initial motions again: the getting to know each other phase: do they like me? Do I like them? Do they want a relationship? What about sex? If you get past the third date, you can look forward to the initial misunderstandings, the not knowing whether things will work out; introductions to friends and family; meeting friends and family. Knowing you don't know, you wonder whether you will go through this initial relationship stuff again and again. Unless you are a professional dater who is allergic to commitment, dating gets old fast.

The loss of a relationship is unsettling. When you lose an abusive relationship, you must deal with all of the ordinary losses as well as some specifically related to abuse.

Losses in an Abusive Relationship

Low self-esteem. Your self-esteem will be at a low point. You are coming out of a relationship where you have been riding an emotional roller coaster powered by your partner's deft ability to give with one hand and take away with the other. This is not the time to look to any love interests to bolster you. Spend some time alone, some time with good friends and family. This is the time to be good to yourself and to love yourself in a constructive way. For example, start an exercise program. Get that jacket you've been admiring. Constructive self-caring is about moderation. Moderation is the difference between pampering yourself with a purchase and a destructive spending spree.

So very, very good; so very, very bad. Your partner knew how to cut you to the quick with a look, and how build you up higher than high. You are likely to miss how extraordinarily good your partner made you feel. Don't forget, they had to - to make up for all of the bad! The good we remember, the bad we forget. Don't make this mistake. Every time you sadly recall a wonderful memory, think of one that hurt. Better yet, think of two.

Actions speak louder than words. Your partner knew exactly what you wanted to hear and said or implied it. Think: this person claimed to love you. Did he or she behave lovingly over time? Do you behave like your partner towards people you love?

Promises, promises. Your partner may be back and may promise you the world. He or she really, really means it! He or she means it for as long as long as it takes to regain your trust. As soon as you become comfortable in the relationship, your partner will do something to mess things up. They can't help it. As much as they crave closeness, they fear it more. There is absolutely nothing you can do about this, but save yourself from it.

Loss of Reality or Fantasy? Did you lose something you really had? Or did you lose a promise that never quite materialized? Did you lose a happy life, or the prospect of a happy life? How much of the time were you really happy? It is likely you are mourning the dream of what could be as opposed to the reality of what was. Check it out.

Advice. Do what you can to get through the first few days or weeks, or however long it takes you. Listen to your instincts - especially when you don't like what you have to say! Heed your advice. Don't give in! Taking your own advice will help you rebuild your self-esteem. An antidepressant often helps you stay on track and do what you have to do during this tough time.

If you know that a relationship is not good for you, stick to your guns. No matter what promises are made, they will be broken. Don't let your wishful thinking, your guilt, your sorrow or your empathy lead you down another dead end path. People don't change overnight. Unless you've learned some new skills, or your partner has been really working the program in therapy, if you go back with your abusive partner, it is only a matter of time before the relationship goes right back to where it was, or becomes worse. Know that you will wake up one day and find yourself in the same hole you are in today, but deeper. If you run your life with your head instead of your heart, you will emerge stronger, wiser, and more self-confidant.

Now is the time to learn from your mistakes. Above all, learn to listen to yourself and take your own good advice.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos, Copyright© 1999. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at [email protected]

September 18, 2006
6:52 pm
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honeyb
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very powerful! thanks so much for this StronginHim..I am so proud of my self, I have scheduled an appointment with a counselor for next Monday! I am going to be ok..right?

September 18, 2006
7:00 pm
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Yes, honeyb...you are going to be OK. You are doing everything you can, one step at a time, to heal your heart.

You WILL recover, my friend. I am rooting for you.

- Strong

September 19, 2006
7:32 pm
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honeyb
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Strong,
It's obviouse you are a very kind person...as are all of you that have posted on this thread....that is such a great thing to feel, it gives me hope knowing there are truly good people left in this world that does care...maybe you are all angels with your wings tucked away so that no one can see them...I am feeling really good about things today.. I am so optimistic that maybe finally I am digging my way out of this black hole..I know there is a distant yet to go, but I am learning to 'read the road map'..Thanks for all of the support, I will be back for more!, honeyb

September 20, 2006
7:56 pm
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honeyb
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September 23, 2006
10:59 pm
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Well, I didn't have to wait long for the other foot to fall - and I didn't have to get back together with him either! A week ago, he managed to get access to my bank account and steal over $200 (done in 4 transactions). The first transaction was Friday around 5 pm for $103, then about 3 hours later he withdrew $43 more ...the following Monday an additional $43, then Wednesday $23. I found out by accident. I was checking my balance online and noticed the ATM withdrawals and I KNEW I hadn't done it. So I phoned him, he wanted to deny it, but then he admitted it saying he was behind on his child support and was about to have a garnishment put on his wages. According to him, it wasn't "stealing" from me because he knew when he made the first withdrawal he was going to pay it back on payday. He went on to say he was very disappointed in me because I let him down by 'not backing him in his time of need' !!!! I ask why, if it was to pay the bill did it take 4 withdrawals. The answer was, well he wasn't sure how much it was going to take - yeah right! Now, he has changed his story just a bit...it seems the bank made an error- he didnt make 4 withdrawals - he only made 2 or 3....I had a word with his addiction counselor..he felt sure it was drinking money. He drug tested him that night (Thursday) and he tested clean, however it will not show alcohol if it has been more than 8 hours since he drank. The counselor told me that he is the kind of alcoholic than can drink for awhile before it blows up. Can you believe, he had the nerve to ask me to go see a movie with him tonight?!?! Thanks to the encouragement, advice, kindness and wisdom I have found on this site, I am proud to say that I was able to NOT get sucked into that black hole of believing him or feeling guilty!! This is a huge step for me. I won't say it was easy, but nothing worthwhile is easy - at least not in my experience. And yes, he gave me the 'But baby, I love you so much, can't you see that..?' speech..and I did feel the twinge, but I was able to resist..even when he started the guilt trips, the twists of manipulation attempts. His counselor advised me to back as far away as I can from him - he feels he might be a threat to me because of some of the voice messages he has left me. Saying things like "God brought us together for a purpose and he is not going to let anyone or anything keep up from spending eternity together"....they are going to try to get a court ordered mental evaluation on him as they believe as I do that there are some other 'mental' issues aside from alcoholism. I will keep you posted and please continue to keep me in your prayers...Thanks everyone, honeyb

September 24, 2006
3:32 pm
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doubleloss
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honey. how are you? how are things unraveling? i'm so proud of you that you were able to hold your ground. please be careful, OK?

September 24, 2006
3:44 pm
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elizabeth anne
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Honeyb

You are very strong, and maybe you are seeing the light as to what is real versus his manipulation... Those twists and pulls are a true strength of character... Hope you are doing ok...

September 24, 2006
4:25 pm
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honey -

This man does sound dangerous. I hope you can heed the advice of his counselor and stay away from him. I also hope that you have recovered from him the debit card (or whatever else) he used to steal that money from you. Frankly, I would prosecute him for it. He needs consequences...bigtime. Theft is theft.

If you feel strong enough, please report this activity to the police and let him taste consequences, instead of letting him get away with it.

-- Strong

September 24, 2006
8:34 pm
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honeyb
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Thanks to each of you. I am not ok, but I'm getting there. It's been a pretty rough weekend emotionally.
I got back all but $50 of it. I considered prosecuting - I have been saving the voice messages on my work phone and emailing them to my home pc so that I can put them on a cd just in case I need it as proof also his counselor wants a copy to use to get the court ordered mental evaluation. On one of the messages he talks about taking the money. I've spent this weekend moving from my duplex to a house. I don't feel safe there anymore. That was really difficult because of the memories - good and bad however, frankly, there are more bad than good. As I was going through things, I found ALOT of empties, some not so empty bottles, liquor store bags. This really angers me because, after he went into treatment, I went on a rampage of looking for and clearing out alcohol related items simply because everytime I would find something I would get the tired story of "But baby, that's old...that's not recent..honest"...and I found some in places I am positive I looked before. The thought also occurred to me that if he was 'guilty' of doing anything wrong, why did he get so upset when he found out I spoke to his counselor? After all, if he was truly strong in his recovery and committed to maintaining sobriety as he claims, wouldn't he, shouldn't he be glad that I felt I could speak to the counselor? Wouldn't a true recovering addict want his so called 'loved one' to voice any concern they might have? For them to feel sure that the addict wasn't using again or bordering on using again? I was a bit hesitant about moving because I felt that was another way he was in control of me, but my safety (and piece of mind) overruled that notion. Plus I told myself that I can't expect a door of opportunity to open up if I am not willing to close a door behind me. I know that this is a major problem for me - always wanting to hang on to where I've been. I'm looking forward to my first meeting with the therapist tomorrow - but afraid too. I've pondered on the idea of how things will change for me so dramatically as I open up to her, then the thought that I will be a new person frightens me. What if I don't like who I really am? Is that insane? Doubleloss, Elizabeth Anne, StronginHim, I am so glad you are on my side! Thanks for the support! Thanks for caring! I will keep stopping in for the love!

September 26, 2006
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honeyb
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I went to see a counselor for myself for the first time yesterday. I think I am going to really like her. I have to admit, I was a mess after talking to her. She really made me feel comfy enough to open up and spill alot of stuff. She said something that has been rolling around in my head all night and all today...that no matter how tough this new journey I am starting gets, I should look back and remember it is no where as tough or painful as where I've already been.....

September 26, 2006
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I like your counselor already... I always wanted the quick fix... without thinking... She is right, the pain and sufferig is so much worse....Once I had the quick fix it was so elating... What one has to realize the pain and suffering after the quick fix is so much harder to endure...

I don/t want to live my life in pain anymore.. it gets old.. and I am so tired of it,.. Aren/t you??? Maybe there comes a time in your life that you just want to say "enough already" I am getting so tired of the pain.. When does it end??? Maybe when we realize how painful this process is and we realize after a period of time we are wasting are precious time by letting this pain rule our lives.... Wow, I think I just vented here... Sick and tired of it....

September 26, 2006
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I know I am not anywhere near reaching the point of being ok. I know that I am still very weak. Today, Leo left several voice messages at work. There were the loving, caring, missing me kind...I know that if I were to talk to him or see him, I'd be in trouble. He keeps saying he doesn't understand why if I love him, I won't spend time with him and now, I won't talk to him. He mentions all of the great times we've had..how we feel to love each other - and he is right, that the best times I've had in my life, I've had with him...but flip it around....the worst times...with him..a double edged sword, isn't it? I still wonder how I can go forward in life without 'him' being part of it...if only I could 'seperate' the beautiful part of him - and throw away the 'bad yoke'..

September 27, 2006
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honeyb. its great that you went to the counsellor. it's so bad when all the good stuff comes to the foreground, it's hard and difficult. I know what you mean, "...if only I could 'seperate' the beautiful part of him - and throw away the 'bad yoke'.. ", none of us would be on these threads.

September 27, 2006
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Dearest Honeyb....

Ok. Let's list the "negatives," shall we? Line them up in black and white from your previous postings:

1. He is possible "borderline paranoid schizophrenic." Whoa.

2. He is an alcoholic.

3. He has not been clean and sober for a year...just a few months? And how to explain all the empty liquor bottles/receipts which you discovered, while packing to move?

4. You have clear evidence on multiple occasions that he lies. In short, you cannot trust this man. He has no integrity.

5. He is an addict. In treatment, perhaps, but nonetheless, an ADDICT.

6. When you were seriously ill with that terrible fever, etc., he demanded that you go outside into the cold air, just after bathing, despite any detrimental effects that might have on your health. He doesn't CARE about your well-being...only his own.

7. He does not work (which explains why he has the idle time for calling you fifty times a day). You supported him. Small wonder he wants you back. Can we say "meal ticket?"

8. He has a history with you of verbal and emotional abuse.

9. He has never met YOUR emotional needs.

10. He has never supported YOU.

11. He is highly manipulative. (He would have to be. Otherwise, no woman would put up with him.)

OK. Now for the "positives." Let me think. Hmmmm...

1. He's male and he's breathing?

That's the only one I could come up with. Perhaps you can come up with others?

- Strong

September 28, 2006
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Thanks everyone....sad when the truth hurts too..honeyb

September 29, 2006
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you know...that fact of the matter is, there are positives about him....God created him too..I know there is good..disease has played a huge factor...I count, yes, I know...but there is good about him...

October 1, 2006
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