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All About the Con Game....
September 25, 2002
10:50 am
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Hey Cici & Ladeska.

First Cici.

You're 100% right. I know that someone deeply entangled in abuse issues is unable, well, at least largely disabled to respond objectively. I do, understand that.

So what to do then if we can't respond effectively/within guidelines?

I would say do either:

(a) Post: "I'm so enraged from my own childhood abuse, that I can't participate in this thread and still follow the guidelines"

(b) Don't post

Let others who are one or two more steps removed respond if they choose & can manage to bitter it out w/ the guidelines.

Or let the original poster die off the thread list. I say it's better to let a thread die than to create more harm & inappropriateness on this planet. There's too much, I want this place safe & constructive if possible.

Ladeska.

Backs are a pain. And I'm in the process of moving... double UGH! My back has nothing to do w/ physical exertion though, it's a muscle group that moves wrong and pinches my sciatic nerve.

Yeah, there's leeway in the guidelines. Plenty I think.
And I believe that - - -

*stating the honesty of our feelings (verbalizing how something/someone really gets at our inner hurt) are the strongest hammers on the market.*

God gave those hammers to us. When we learn how to use those powerful hammers, we can pound right to the core of people rather than giving them more energy bars (throwing bricks and bombs justifies their anger, and fuels it).

September 25, 2002
12:04 pm
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*smile*

September 25, 2002
1:13 pm
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Cici
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Ok, sounds good. Thanks SC!

September 25, 2002
1:33 pm
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*smiles back at you both*

Bottom line - I know the guidelines are at times, really, really hard to follow. I'm just trying to say that despite that, it's still very important, and worth doing.

I am pretty sure everyone knows that, I just want to keep it in the forefront and continue talking about how and why.

September 25, 2002
2:22 pm
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Ladeska
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Alena - since you asked me about "how" and "what" and because I know your heart sweet sister of mine - would begin by wetting your whistle here with this little piece of information and see if this gets the old wheels to turning.... and anyone else - please read as well..

http://www.careact.org/index.html#three

And here are some other websites, too that may help educate or provide ways that people can get help or get involved.

Love this guy! He's such a warrior and is the one that sent me this above update...

http://www.vachss.com/andrew.html

http://home.att.net/~rememberingkids/

http://members.aol.com/Racer06.....ndex3.html

http://www.rainn.org/

http://www.child-abuse.com/

http://www.calib.com/nccanch/p.....nstats.cfm

http://www.casanet.org/library.....udy-93.htm

http://www.stormloader.com/wis...../NCPCA.htm

http://www.americanhumane.org/.....lities.htm

THERE YOU GO!!!! Should get whoever is interested more than started!

September 25, 2002
6:56 pm
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Well, those were all good rants, but folks I am here in the trenches, and its an ugly war. For the last 10 years, with what I have done, and do, I am required to report child abuse, not a problem. But I do get those scenarios that SC posted, and I must keep my facial color beyond glowing, my hands in my pockets, and my tonality down, and resort to the lines of responses that will keep the client comming back so that I can with the grace of some thing, effect change! The average number of children that my female clients have is 7. Of course most of them have lost custody of one two or all seven, and are working with child protective services to regain custody. We live in an area where the parents actually threaten to take the children to the infamous HALL!!!!! I want you all to hear real loud, that although there are laws to report ABUSE, there are no laws, or mandates that require you to report CHILD ENDANGERMENT! Now please do not mis-understand me here, but one of the things that could help this situation is to allow birth controll, tubal ligation, abortion, and hysterectomies, and vascetomies on our infamous govt. insurance MEDICAL. The second thing we can do is to ascertain that if custody is removed from a parent, that it isn't given to the mother of the abusive parent, where the heck did the person learn her parenting skills from ? My very first client was involved in an infamous child abuse case where the child was killed by the woman who was given custody of the child removed from the mothers custody. The social services people are so over burdoned that they can't do the necessary investigation, as to the person that they are giving custody to, fog a mirror and you get them. They do try to go to family members first due to the seperation trauma, but common please. I see women every day with the child that was removed, they live with the awarded custody person, across the street, and then what is up with the just removing one child when there are several others in the home. Then there are the social workers who aren't looking at what they should be, but insist that the dishes are done, and the beds are made, now these are indicators, but more of a power trip if you ask me. Then I get kids removed from parents for the stupidest of things, which lands them back at home, with just a bad PR job for the system, when it was just the wrong reason. Now many of the clients that I have WERE raised in the foster care system, its a family disease, ok ! They got inpregnated by the caretakers, or raped in the HALL, or decided to live their parents lives which is what most have done, PARENTS ARE THE PRIMARY TEACHERS, NO?
We do need to be more educational and starting at a very early age, and yes it is undermining the parental authority because most parents don't have any authority over their kids since they dumped them here and there since they were knee high to a grasshopper. But do I want what Castro did in Cuba, hell no. Turn them over to the state with the free child care ? Turn them over to the public school system with their new Social Services provided by the state, hell no. I don't even want to make people go through a state mandated program before they give birth, to much govt. controll, and they keep changing their minds on what we as parents are supposed to do. I just have to share that my intake today of a 22 year old male with 6 children just broke my heart, I mean damn the guy is cute, can see how he got to where he is, even though he has spent half of his life incarcerated, but what chance does this kid have ? He can't even get a CDL because of the DA and back child support from when he was incarcerated, so work ? And do you think his kids have a chance, they are with him and his mother, the four mothers are no where around!
Sister in law does stats at Kaiser Fontana, wanna know how old the mothers are giving birth, got more than a couple of 11 year olds, and no the family would never consider adoption, or abortion. So, do you take all the pregnant females between this age and that ageand do something similar to incarceration with child ? Do you put a chasity belt on all females till they pass a test ? There isn't enough money, there isn't enough guidelines, there isn't enough education, there isn't enough !
What do you do with the good kid, that just insists on screwing up their life, can you blame the parents, and make them responsible ?
I have grandmothers that are only 33 years old, please come up with the answer. I don't have it, and I really don't know where to begin. Oh and lets not forget that we must be sensitive to cultural differences!! * ugh gag me *

September 25, 2002
7:03 pm
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Molly
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Yes, it was a bad day, and did have to provide documentation of urine tests for more than one mom, ok ! Do they love their kids, yes I think so, do they want to be good parents, yes I think so, do they have a clue, nope.
Is there hope, nope don't think so.

September 25, 2002
10:08 pm
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Oh Molly.....I'm with you, gagging over here....going what the hell? Just heard the crap on T.V. about the Toogood's (what a name, huh) and I'm just sitting here going - oh who the hell cares? Just listened to people writing into O'Reilly telling him to "behave" and get with the program and stop picking on these people. I guess we should all just throw our hands up and go back to the way we were and people like me and others will just do the best we can. I don't have any other answers. Just like you pointed out - the system doesn't work and we all just keep spinning in our own shit and vomit.

I'm all for snipping, clipping and removing the right for some people to have kids, btw. But....we must protect the rights of bad people, so there you go! So kids - there you have it - Live in it until you get out of it or if you can't live through it - I tried but no one is listening and the few that are - are over burdened...(sigh) I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall that is not moving. Sorry Molly, I just feel your frustration, my frustration and wonder what it all means anymore.

September 26, 2002
9:08 am
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Wellllll, this is why I feel like it needs to be AVOIDED, because once it stops, we have little legislation or manpower to stop it. It is like a huge flood, something we just can't control because it is much bigger than our resources.

Most children are in school more than they are at home, we have to take advantage of that time to "brainwash" them into being good human beings. But, as it stands now, it's too much politcal correctness standing in the way of common sense. Can't do this, can't do that, that borders on inflicting morals, no no no, can't do that....my God, let's get back to what we are sending children to school for...how about...the future???? If we cannot reach them once they become abusive, then let's begin earlier. And by the way, perhaps we could head off many forms of abuse if we just give young children coping skills, problem solving skills.

Molly, I feel for you, how do you handle that every single day and get up in the morning ready to go again...
do you just feel like a hamster on a wheel...not getting anywhere? Do you ever feel as though your suggestions, counseling, have made a difference in someone's behavior?

Ladeska, thanks for the sites, I did go to most of them last night and did a double take at some of the stats, mind boggling and overwhelming. Just motivates me more to do something, just some thing..
Ohio put to death a child rapist/murderer yesterday after he was on death row for TWENTY years...I still think that's little compensation to the little girl's family..

September 26, 2002
10:23 am
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Goodmorning Ladeska, Molly, Alena.

We're all educated in life.

We're taught how to drink through a straw, how to hit a softball, the spelling of Mississippi, and the evil arts of hitting children.

Even the simplest things are learned, and mostly from our parents.

And then there's people who need 're-education'. It's 10x harder to re-teach than the first time around.

Why does Ms. Toogood beat her kids? I'm guilty of knowing almost nothing of the case except seeing the video. But I'd guess, it's been taught to her?? (most likely she's had some personal experience of her own??). But I do know that when there's a 'reward' for our behavior (control of children to keep a lifestyle going - gypsies?), then it's even harder to re-educate. As Molly said, she's not so sure it works.

MOLLY & LADESKA:

I really don't know much about physical abuse, so please, don't listen to me as any source of valid info on the subject, but I'd surmise that it's a little like sexual abuse? In that 99% of people who sexually abuse children, were abused themselves. But 99% of people who were sexually abused, DO NOT go on to sexually abuse others. As w/ sexual abuse, were 99% of physical abusers abused themselves?

Do either of you (or anyone else!) know anything from research/your knowledge as to what are the reasons/triggers that cause someone who was physically abused to carry on the 'bad tradition?' if that truly is part of the pattern? I really don't know. Or is it just like so many other things, a complicated human behavior cluster f***? IE: life stress, low self esteem, poor coping skills, low family support, etc?

- SC

September 26, 2002
10:24 am
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Cici
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Screw birth preparation classes. They should make all expectant parents take PARENTING classes.

My sister and I were talking about this. She's no longer librarian, she's treasurer of the local La Leche League and they had a debate about it at one of their meetings. Giving birth is mostly instinctual. The real hard part, that is NOT instinctual (though so many people seem to believe it is), is actually raising the kids. Blah. BLAH, I SAY!

September 26, 2002
10:37 am
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Cici,

I agree!!

Hey, I think this one is worth lobbying for, for real.

How do you get married?

You get a license and take a blood test.

And when you give birth, you become a "legal" guardian, and the baby gets "legal" citizenship and government SS# (at least all this in the US), so HECK! Given the politics involved w/ birth already, I think women should require a license for a child. And to get that, it's like going to driver's education school to get a driver's license. Ya gotta take classes. A general 8 week course, like 2 days a week. Cost ya $200.

Though, at least in the US, having children is viewed as a "right" and not a "priviledge", though I think you've got a solid point and one worth working toward.

- SC

September 26, 2002
10:39 am
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And I think Molly & Ladeska could help write the curriculum.

What kinds of things would be covered in a general parenting curriculum?

September 26, 2002
1:35 pm
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Why do people who have been abused - abuse? Just my opinion here, is quite the question.....but here goes...

They "choose" to, first and foremost. When a child initially gets hurt - what also transfers to them is that the person who did it - got some kind of release from it. They got a reward inside themselves for making someone - their own victim. That....transfers and is can be learned, adapted to another person faster than one synapse can say hello to another one.

They learn that behavior very quickly that if you need a "fix" in this regard - this is what you do to make yourself feel better, to feel like - you are now in control - this is how it's done. To not feel like prey and like a predator instead - this is what you do.

But again, we all have a choice not to pick up this pattern and make it our own. It's so tempting though because it gives someone such an immediate fix to have someone else under their thumb, like they used to be and they can now "role play" over and over again and relentlessly try and make their own initial pain go away....so every time they get angry, or feel out of control, or low in self esteem or mad that someone else seems to have innocent sunshine about them that they are jealous of - guess what happens? physical violence, rage, rape, incest, etc.

They also have trouble with the rewiring of their brain in some ways - from the effects of trauma and what the chemical cocktail that our brain secrets during times of fight or flight and intense trauma - that when happening at an early age and when it continues for years - this does rewire the brain. It causes A.D.D., it causes speech problems, it causes hearing problems, concentration and learning problems, memory problems and a myriad of other problems - all directly connected to - what those chemicals secreted by the body in times of stress - do to the body ongoing and to the brain, especially a young developing brain. I have researched this for years and it is just now becoming something on the plates of researchers. I've been in touch with a few of them and it's something they are looking closely at.

But again, I still do not believe that a person's will cannot overcome this. However, I do believe they need help. I think some drugs, help some people but I think for the most part we have just been putting a bandaid on what's really going on with highly traumatized people.

I think that people's belief system about who they are - gets really messed up when things happen in their lives, especially when they are children and because of this belief - certain chemicals that are not healthy to them mentally are therefore secreted into the body and consequently the body is also robbed of things it desperately needs in order to maintain healthy balance.

I think there is a wheel....a holistic wheel if you will - that could be constructed whereby we address many things with an individual at once as we raise them up on all levels an eighth of an inch at a time. Otherwise, we will always be chasing our tails and dropping the ball.

Some people's conscience, because of either their own will or because what they went through completely snapped them - their conscience just isn't there anymore. Yet, their ability to con you and do tremendous evil in this world is very much alive and well. Is there help for these people. No, I don't believe there is and I think they are some of the most dangerous and seemingly nice people on the planet. They are the ones who - never get caught. And people like Ms. Toogood will probably walk free because like minds - will free her.....

I think we need to take the issue of bringing a child into this world a HUGE amount more seriously than we do. I think that classes like what we have been talking about should be mandatory and I think they should be tough classes. I think you should have to get a license in order to have a child. Absolutely. And I think we should have tough, tough laws against abuse which means - you might get a second chance but you will never get a third one and it will be damned hard to even get a second one! In a perfect world...I'm dreaming....

And I don't know what all the crap is about regarding - well, we can't find good places for them, they will just be bounced around in foster homes, blah, blah, blah. Um......what is wrong with this picture when I have known SEVERAL people, couples in my lifetime that have a very HARD time adopting a child and it's NOT because they aren't good people who would love a child to death. I just don't get it. So the system is so bad that we aren't providing for them well? Yes, that is the truth, but it does not mean that then they should go right back to someone like Ms. Toogood and clan! Two wrongs don't make one right! If someone knocked on my door tommorrow and asked me if I would take Martha - I would, in a heartbeat. I don't have much, but whatever I have would be hers and I'd find a way to take care of and love that little girl like she deserves. I've had street kids live with me before and one more - was never any big deal, c'mon on in, everyone move over, share what we've got and we'll make it somehow.

So, to me - I just see us sabotaging ourselves at the very same time we are throwing up our hands and going - it's a no-win situation, blah, blah! But is anyone really getting to the root of the freaking problem here and going ENOUGH!!!! I think people should be up in arms about it myself. If I see one more assinine lawyer get up and defend poor little well-meaning people like Ms. Toogood I think I am going to go bonzaii on someone! What the hell is wrong with people these days anyways????????

I remember years ago having to report a woman that was the mother of one of my daughter's friends. She lived in a very nice house, her and her husband made great money, etc, etc. and yet behind the scenes the torture that she put her two children through was just horrible.... I finally made the call. And come to find out - little miss priss - was a social worker. She was the very one I could have talked to if she had answered the phone! But her coworkers were the ones that came out and investigated her and I heard - they never spoke to her again... The kids wouldn't tell them anything because she had threatened them. The teenage girl who had everything going for her but could never please mom - has ended up a drug addict and quite the promiscuous one there and she was an honor student...always trying to win their love...by performing. I don't know what happened to her younger brother but he was on angry kid when I knew him and had every right to be one.

I don't know what the answers are. I really don't. I know people don't like to think about it, talk about it for very long because it's just so vile and horrible in every sense. And I realize this thread won't last long for that very reason. All I do know is - I will continue to do what I can in the spot where I stand and that is all I can do. Maybe that is all any of us can do. If there was an answer - it may be - simply that. An "amplified you" who is educated, asking questions, aware, digging, getting involved - can and will make a HUGE difference. I just remember wanting "one" person to even act like they remotely knew and saw what was going on in my home. Just one adult, even if they couldn't help me. So - you guys matter.....you matter alot.

September 26, 2002
2:45 pm
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Alena
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I think I've heard that idea of needing a license to have a kid for about oh, as long as I can remember, and most times it's been said sarcastically. When all along it was pretty close to needing to be a reality. And in a perfect world, we would all just go happilly, hand in hand, to the Kid License Bureau and take the course, pass the tests, and get the license and have our kid. I don't know how you can do that in a society as free as ours, where folks live as they please for the most part, can keep a low profile and find ways of skirting that course and that license. How about the people who still give birth at home, and just another reason for them to try that if they don't want to bother with the courses or if they dont have the money to sign up, but are pregnant. Really, I dont know how you could legislate or enforce that...but there are so many uninformed, unloved, untrained, unprepared parents out there who have no clue what to do with a real, live breathing child who is now a part of their lives and a hefty responsibility.

I gotta believe that if we start to impress young children when they are still impressionable, when they are still able to soak it all up like a sponge, how to treat others, how to handle what life may throw you, how to work things out,...how to find their own resources inside themselves and how to ask for help..somehow..I just think we could eliminate a good number of emotionally empty parents. And just emotionally empty people for that matter, child abuse, spousal abuse, neighbor abuse, road rage, just violence in general. Alot of times violence comes from frustration of not knowing what the heck to do with this frustration...who knows...
I don't want to just throw up my hands and say blah, blah, blah, I don't want to forget "Martha" and go on with my little life, I know there are tons of other Marthas out there and we, as a rich, powerful nation should find a way to heal ourselves.

September 26, 2002
8:41 pm
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Now if even 90% of these were ugh planned pregnancies, there might be a chance...... har har har
Unfortunately I really think it is a socio-economic kind of thing. The higher the level the more education, the more money to pay for private services, or at least the knowledge in the " now what do we do our daughter is knock ed up ". Then there is the cultural and religious aspect.
I really don't want birth controll instead of flouride in the water, but.... Yes I know its not limited to the poor, but that is where the majority of it happens, and yes I deal with 4th generation welfare recipients.
I did get very upset with the facts regarding the child endangerment issue, but with my mental masturbation, got to focusing just how grey endangement is. Where do you draw the line ? How many people have you run into that put kool-aid in a baby's bottle, rot the teeth, pre cursor to sugar addicitons, diabetes, and then when I talk to sis, and what parents, up standing what you would think of as educated send their kids to pre school with for nutrition for the day, and then end up on ritlan for the rest of their youth. How many kids have a schedule that you know of today where the kids go to bed at 8:30 every night, most of them are up to all hours. Keep kids home from school just because, don't go to the MD because they think its nothing,send them to school with green snot, and fevers, leave the kids with uncle Bill on probation because he is home. How much endangerment is involved when parents yell at each other, is divorce child endangerment ? Is letting an 8 year old have a key to the house after school endangerment ? Is giving them burger king, or mc donalds due to the fat content endangerment ? Letting them watch pg 13 when they are 10 endangerment ? Kids aware that you smoke cigs? drink wine ? Don't exercise ? Damn straight these are all issues that some zellot, including my self on an arrogant day would have to agree is some sort of endangerment. Who is really innocent?
Changes in medical could do tons, I will never forget one client that was only 22 pregnant with her 5 said why can't they let drug addicts get tubal ligations ? this was a lady that told me she used heroin to show her mother what it was like to see some one you love use drugs, she didn't know she would become addicted. She didn't know the father of her child would beat her, she didn't know she would have 3 abortions, and her mother would get custody of her two live births, and the lady at planned parenthood when I arranged the abortion, said sorry can't arrange the tubal for 90 days, and they usually end up pregant before the appointment, and the cost, of course of which they never have the money for. They can't even get birth controll which I guess is now like what $30 a month ? There is your legislation, any one in drug treatment has free access to abortion, birth controll, or tubals, or vasectomys. Its hard on the women, but now its bad for the guys too. How do we make parents responsible ???????????????????????
I think alot of abuse is due to instinct they revert to what they know, learned, experienced.Even though they know it feels like when they were a kid they justify that they are ok.

September 26, 2002
9:20 pm
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Molly
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Alena, yes I do feel like they hear, but.... they have to hear it, over and over again. Once you hear something, you can't erase it, like verbal abuse no ? They can ignore it, discredit it, but it is in their head.
I will never forget a woman that got assigned when I was temp last year, she was in her 8th month, and I am supposed to give parenting education to her, she had been in parenting programs since her first child and this would be #9 of which she and her husband had custody of all. The first thing she did was apologize that she had 8 children, and that she had talked to a Priest and so her husband had just gotten cut, so no more. I am telling you this lady laid out a routine, schedule, that would make most of us hide our heads in shame. Addict yes, good parent yes, provided for, and had it together. An inspiration. But although she had the same services, opportunities as many do, she utilized them, go figure, why how its a mystery.
So many of these souls are so lost, so unloved, so unable to love, that when you do touch them, it lasts, you know when you touched them and it feeds you to keep feeding them. Its called faith, hope, and ugh insanity.
The root to all of this in my opinion is love, self love, and coaching them to the point where they can experience enough self love so that they can start the growth process again, and build on it, so that they to can have faith in them selves, and toss the looser, what the hell attitude. That if they can change this and that, that miracles will happen. I don't know I guess I see the fragility of the persona. I guess I am so intouch with my humaness, that I know in a flash, two or more bad decisions, and it could be me. I see ignorance as just that not evil, I see what acceptance can do, I know what that hug does when you feel un touchable, I know what it feels like to be lost in a crowd. I know to some extent the power of a kind word, and I work it. Its some what selfish, I get more than I give.
I learn, I feel , I experience, I celebrate little things. I do what I can to make a difference, if nothing else to get the damn kool aid out of a babies bottle, but acknowledge that at least they gave the baby a bottle.
I see the hope of life, when they have gotten over the pain of knowing they are pregnant, that perhaps this is the miracle that will change their lives, the hope. False though it may be, what the hell else can you do but coach them ? It really makes my struggles seem so small, and trivial. I celebrate what I do have.
I really felt like shit today when an old client assigned to another counselor came in and said hi, how is life, I said I am surviving, he said at least you have a home to dis like.
It put me in my place mentally, no?

SC I would write it if I knew where to begin, but I really think its an out of controll,sociotal adjustment, that is going to take a generation or two to change, and it won't be what we want to see. I truly believe this is some sort of armegaden, or simply communisum. Its going to get worse before it gets better. Our funding for the free medical care was cut, as most of the free medical clinics in LA county. The health care system is fubared. The housing, I have had 9 clients tell me they got eviction notices, the owners are selling and getting higher rents, and tossing out the section 8's which is assisted housing. I have had 6 intakes of homeless people, on GR, and they can't find shelter. How do you get better ? The adverage rents for something decent is $1300 a month, I am working and can't afford that, so what is going to happen to all the SSI folk, minimum wage folk ? So Cal is in for a rock ride, and this isn't even cold and flu season. So, now they are homeless, with out medical treatment, what are you going to do, just hand out some mind altering drug, damn I would be first in line, just like I tell my clients, you only have how many kids I would do drugs too. You deal with one person at a time right now, and that is it. Then you go home.

September 27, 2002
1:11 pm
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September 27, 2010
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Molly, Molly........heart wrenching, isn't it? The human condition.... We've failed. It's just as simple as that - in so many ways we've dropped the ball and to recover it - is monumental at this point, which usually means some kind of disaster where everything goes whacked to a major proportion. Seems to be the only way we clean house and start over. Pretty lame, isn't it - that we can be so blind or distracted or whatever that it literally takes a raging fire to sweep through and level it before we can start from scratch and basically do the same mistakes all over again. Is something I ponder quite a bit and go - aren't we smarter than that? Then why do we keep doing these same circles?

People like you just shuffle from person to person trying to effect some kind of change, keep people's heads above water, give basics to people who need it, etc., etc. Isn't hard to see where you are, what you do and what your heart and mind is all about. And the people like you go home at night and you relish the little flowers, the moments in your day when something shines so brightly and at the same exact moment you realize we are all on the brink of collectively drowning. And I guess it all boils down to - if we can dream it, we can do it. I know we dream of what it could be - if we saw ahead of the game and prepared for it appropriately and that makes it soo hard because in reality - we pretty much just grab what we want for the moment and don't worry about alot of other things or people.

All I know, sweetheart is - I am so glad that "you" and people like you are on this earth because - in all reality here - it is about "the one" that is touched, helped. And that is all we can do sometimes. It just doesn't help that you have the mind to see the whole picture, does it? I know......it hurts....the truth is so very hard to live with sometimes.

Just want you to know that I understand your heart here....and ditto it. I know you're not looking for kudos and I'd be the last person to give them to you just for the sake of kissing up. I don't do that. But more than anything when I see a pearl....when I see a heart that is as lovely as yours - I'm going to tell you about the beauty I see at some point. Then I'm going to pat you on the butt and send you on your way because - we need you back out on the field! You're priceless and people that you see every day - are very lucky to have you in their life. It's called - being "real" and being "really there".

September 27, 2002
1:30 pm
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Cici
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Ah the perennial subject of parenting licenses. In a fascist state, we could put it into policy immediately. China and Japan have mandatory abortions for subsequent children after parents have "filled their quota". In China they also still do the exposure thing, in a hospital setting. I read an article about a doctor visiting China who witnessed a nurse put a baby born with birth defects in a closet, covered with blankets and kept warm, but starved to death.

Looks great on paper, but how can you enforce it? Even child birth preparation classes aren't mandatory. My older sister didn't take any, just huffed it away without any painkillers, just tylenol after it was all over.

BUT - I do think that parenting classes should be offered. And they aren't, unless you f*ck up royally and are mandated by social services or the court system.

When I was pregnant, the OB gave me a folder with different leaflets, instruction sheets, information sheets - and a brochure from the hospital listing it's birthing classes offered. Infant CPR, Bradley's Method, Lamas (sp?) Method, Labor and Delivery tour, no parenting classes. DUH.

And it always surprises me how many services are out there and offered and people just have no idea, Molly. WTF? I guess social services doesn't really have a budget for advertising, ha ha.

When I was pregnant, I wasn't scared of delivering the baby, or anything - I was petrified of being a terrible parent, of falling into the patterns that my parents did. Then again, they made me what I am today and I'm damn proud.

But Molly is right. Who's righteousness is right? It really is a slippery slope. One woman says spanking is ok in moderation, another says no spanking whatsoever. Some parents (the Osbournes!!!) swear like sailors in front of their kids, other parents would consider that horrible. My little nephew says "OH SHIT" when he spills something. Could he be taken away from my sister because she polluted his mind accidentally?

Where is a line that can be drawn? No one would ever be able to agree.

September 27, 2002
1:42 pm
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site coordinator
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HEY!

😀

Let's see... yeah, I know it's a tough road, but I actually do think that to do what the Republicans preach "strengthen family values" that parenting classes are right up that bowling alley.

STRIKE!

To further human evolution and get us 2 notches further from the chaos we've created, I think that though it's somewhat fascist, that it's a good idea.

But as to WHAT to teach?

Well, here's my suggestions for Objectives to complete, ie: future parents should be able to formulate decent/subjective answers for the following after the course:

(1) What is self-esteem? What is self-image? How do they develop? How do they play a role in our lives? How can parents be a strong and positive force in developing these?

(2) What are the elements of good communication? What are the effects on children who live in an environment with aggressive communication? What is assertive communication? Can you give an example of assertive communication versus agressive communication? Why is good communication important? What does good communication do for us? When is aggressive communication better than assertive communication?

(3) What are some of the elements involved in sexual abuse? How do children become targets?

These are probably the ones I'd like to see... How to present it though, there's a lot more to this. But 1-3 alone would be a thumbs up from me.

September 27, 2002
6:52 pm
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Molly
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Couldn't agree more SC, and all three were in the program that I delivered to court mandated families, along with some drug and alcohol information, who most likely funded some of the project, but as Cici pointed out, gota screw up before you get the word, or words as the case may be.
The trend being set is to have the churches deliver the word. That is where the grant money is going, so educate the preachers, and deliver the classes to the flock. Its a start, but we have a very large group out here that recruite from the prisons, and recovery centers, and although they do good, its like a cult, like so many other religions.And guess who is getting rich off it all! No surprise there.
I don't believe we could ever pass such laws that Cici speaks of, to many rights infringed, har har har, we can't even incarcerate terrorists with out considering their rights, no ? So, how ya gonna snuff a kid?
I hear from the street that the mafia is going more into politics, har har har, could it be worse ?
Ladeska thanks for the acknowledgement, but I think you are out there too. I remember all the conversation about California falling into the ocean, maybe that could happen, but it is definately slipping and damn fast, and right down into the gates of hell if you ask me. Yea I do what I can from this person to that person, and keep on, gotta do something and this has so much more meaning than fighting with some B* over her commission. There is bogus paper work every where. I have felt like chicken little shouting the sky is falling for so long, it feels good to finally be validated, however we are now stepping over the chunks.
It is time to cash out and run, but where ? I swear that is what I want to do, I felt safe up North, small town, easy to controll. But things in the populated areas are going to get bad. It was so easy for me to see some of the things I needed to learn about being human working with this population, and its so true, money isn't evil, the absence of money is evil, and people will go to great legnths to survive. Ignorant people, don't know they need education. Poor people can't take the time for what they call the luxury of education, dreams, goals, or self fulfillment. They are stuck in oh brain fart, is it Maslows pyrimid I am thinking of ? Ladeska, you know I know where you surf some of the time, it is going to burst big time, and then maybe there will be some to pick up the pieces. I wonder if our grandmothers felt like this when the car was invented, or the reaction to TV, or the telephone,change is scarey, messes up the familiar, the comfort, the knowing, but its a jungle out here that is for sure.

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