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All About the Con Game....
September 24, 2002
3:24 pm
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Ladeska
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Good, good site! Was doing some research concerning the "Irish Tinker Gypsies" and there really isn't alot out on the net about them, but Ms. Toogood, who was videotaped beating her child is obviously part of this wandering group. A Canadian news source did a thing on them a few years ago on T.V. and it was really good, but very frightening. They basically make their living by being grifters, cons and they are good at it. They also intermarry and keep all their secrets close to the vest and are taught from the cradle up - how to deceive and con people. Their children are raised to be married off soon, some as young as 12, 13, 14. They have beauty pagents where they parade small children around dressing them up like hookers. Was just sickening what I saw on this show with actual footage and interviews with these people. And then we trip onto Ms. Toogood - caught redhanded and the more you dig, the more you find....obviously the "con" in the store didn't go as planned and she took it out on her small child.... GRRR!!! All that being said - here's a website that is helpful about cons in general in a broad spectrum..

http://www.dawnsbrain.com/troy.....links.html

September 24, 2002
3:42 pm
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gingerleigh
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I read this real quick, and screwded it up and thought Ladeska was drawing a connection between Irishlass, Gypsygirl, and Tinkerbell. Imagine my confusion as I continued reading! *grin*

No connection, y'all, just me being me.

Good links, Ladeska.

September 24, 2002
3:58 pm
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gypsygirl
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From what I saw on the news about this woman, she looked around to see if anyone was watching before she beat her child. This is sickening to me. No child that small should be spanked at all. I am all for spanking, but not small children. And what was with those beauty pagents. One of those girls looked alot like jonbenet ramsey. They have their own culture great, but it is all about the cons and lies. I am happy that little girl is in foster care.

September 24, 2002
4:59 pm
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Ladeska
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And she should stay in foster care or be adopted by someone who really cares about her! Of course, Toogood is sorry....sorry she got caught! Didn't buy her story for one minute and that lawyer of hers just made my blood boil with the crap he said!!! She didn't mean to.......well what the heck do you call it when you look around to make sure the coast is clear and then you wail away for about 20 hard punches worth and you keep doing it????? Monster? Yea, the word comes to mind here! She just lost her head? No, her head is thinking, thinking, thinking all the time about what she can do "for her" and get away with it. And you can tell - this hasn't been the first time either - that she's beat this little girl. And I'm OH SO sure that while she had her for those few days she put the fear of hell itself into her about what NOT to tell the police and psych's. Because we all know - she will get her back at some point and this woman knows that as well. Just breaks my heart for this little girl and would just lovveee to have this woman to myself for oh say - 24 hours. Sorry, but there was no remorse on that woman's face for what she did to that baby. She was sorry for the trouble "SHE" got into and that was it. Just another con game going on. Makes me completely and utterly sick to my stomach and you watch - she'll get off or go to "anger management" classes and being the little psychopath she is - she'll convince everyone how much she's changed and off they'll go and no one will ever track them to know what happened next to that little girl. But hey, children are just possessions to people like this, they think they have the right to beat them like ragdolls, is a release for them.. That woman should have all her kids taken away permanently and be sterilized and locked up.

September 24, 2002
5:11 pm
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site coordinator
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Hey Folks!

I'm gonna toss a *hypothetical question* on this thread, rather than keeping this hypothesis on the short penis thread.

******************************

If I came in here today, and said,

"I beat my children everyday, and I enjoy it. I get satisfaction seeing them cry and under my control. It feels good to get out my frustrations on those little bastards. And I don't think police or anyone else has a right to say or do anything because they are my kids! I think child services are a joke and should go fuck themselves."

******************************

What kind of response coulda shoulda woulda I get?

See ya'll tomorrow.

Hugs, SC

September 24, 2002
5:31 pm
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gingerleigh
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Interesting... I was just going to do a post about how this whole Mrs. Toogood scandal has been making me feel, when SC posted this question.

OK, first about my feelings. I listened to the radio this morning and the DJs were playing the recording of this woman while they played dueling banjos and squealing pigs in the background. And they were saying that this woman is evil and bad, etc. And it made me so ill. I think beating kids is WRONG, no argument out of me, but I think it hurt me in 2 ways. First, my parents used to say that it was ok to spank kids and hit them if they were misbehaving. I didn't get hit often, I would say I was hit "improperly" twice in my life. Once my my mom when I was 12 for cussing, and once beaten severely by my dad when I was 17 for his own issues, and the misdirected anger got taken out on me. But anyway, I didn't get spanked often, but the times that happened I do remember with clarity, it was humiliating, and *kinda* hurt, but it was the fear thing that played on me most. But my childhood was less than stellar, and I'd be the first to tell you it wasn't that great, so maybe hitting and spanking kids really *is* wrong. I'm a product of that sort of upbringing.

Anyway, the second thing that really upset me was how eagerly the entire nation is throwing rocks at this woman. Yes, she did a horrible thing. Yes, she should be punished. Is it any of our business? No. It's been reported to the authorities, and she's going to be tried and convicted, simple as that. End of story. The media and the general population seem to take a lot of pride in making themselves feel better by saying how evil this woman is, how sick she is, and gee we're such pure and good people that we never do anything bad. She's a monster, we aren't, so that makes us OK and not monsters. We're putting other people down to make ourselves feel better. And that's what has me so upset, the hypocrisy.

There are certain types of crimes that we all seem to feel should never be forgiven, that the person can never be treated. Child physical abuse, child sexual abuse, rape, spousal abuse...

So SC, how would people respond? Child abuse is not a "forgiveable" sin in the eyes of many, and I don't think that the response would be patient or loving. I don't know if it should be... just throwing out some uncomfortable thoughts of my own.

September 24, 2002
5:33 pm
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Ladeska
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Oh, I dunno, SC, I guess we should hold hands and sing songs!

Coulda, shoulda, woulda covers alot of territory, don't you think? Not sure how to answer this question. Like people wouldn't be enflamed about a statement like that? But, I guess what you'd want us to say is if we were that angry - we should keep it off the threads and if we could offer help that was constructive - only post that. Is that the answer you are looking for?

Is that reasonable? No, but it's the rules here and that's what we should all try and do so don't ignite things. But what are you driving at here? Feel like I'm stabbing in the dark with this one. And I'm sure you know what a sensitive subject this is for me personally, but will still try and answer if you elaborate a little more as to what you are getting at.

Yes, yes, still trying to read the boring book of political correctness....boring subject....lame mentality, even amusing at times..

September 24, 2002
5:50 pm
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Ladeska
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As for me, I've never witnessed one person change who was a child abuser or a sexual offender or a wife beater for that matter. Maybe we're doing something wrong in the way we treat them and then again - maybe they can't be cured.

The only reason I say she's a monster is because of what I saw on tape and that was no woman just losing her temper. That was cold and calulating and thought out. She didn't just lose - squat! I don't personally feel better because I would call her evil and sick and it doesn't make me have a superior attitude of being pure and good. It's called - reacting to the real horror of what we saw in that tape and having a gutoral reaction of horror and outrage. It demands it in my book.

And time and time again - we do leave it up to the authorities and they walk. We do think they are getting help and they don't. We do think they get healed - and they continue. And yes, I was a victim of all that and saw many people who around me who didn't want to "judge" or not give them every chance possible and didn't want to get their hands dirty and really HELP me and do something that freaking mattered - so, I'm not really a fan of worrying about judging them. I'd just get turned back over to my parents at some point and if I thought the last time was bad - just wait until they got me for this infraction!!

No, child abuse isn't forgiveable in my eyes and I don't understand why it would be to anyone else. Sorry, just don't have the understanding for that one. Guess it was raped, kicked, starved, beaten right out of me. They are still not sorry for any of it and yet - they are good little christians that their community just adores. Monsters? Yes, I know about their kind of monster and it pisses me OFF because people think I'm just going off the deep-end, being judgemental, overly critical, blah, blah, blah. Well, frankly - I don't really care what people think about this subject and how I FEEL about it. Child abuse is not Relative and this woman - if she gets her child back - WILL do it again. She's sooo far ahead of us in the wiles of cunning that we never saw her kind coming and it will go right over our heads. We will want to forgive and forget and give her another chance and get her to take some little counseling classes and she'll be off in no time - with her child in tow, never to be heard of again. And we'll feel better - because we didn't "judge" her. Actually maybe we should all sing and hold hands...think I'm beating my head against a brick wall with this anymore. Guess I should just bite my tongue, eh?

September 24, 2002
6:05 pm
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gingerleigh
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Nope, no reason to bite your tongue. That's counterproductive and just makes us all into little PC drones, right? We wouldn't learn anything if the smart people kept their mouths shut.

September 24, 2002
6:19 pm
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Ladeska
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Oh who knows, Ginger, maybe being a drone ain't so bad. I wouldn't know and guess I never will. Is tempting sometimes though....

September 24, 2002
6:20 pm
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Ladeska
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Wanna hula hoop now??

September 24, 2002
6:44 pm
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Molly
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I don't think there is a simple solution here, God knows the Foster Care System, SUCKS. So, did we take this child from the frying pan into the fire ? What about the trauma of the seperation, bad parenting yes, but there is a connection for that child. That is trauma as well, and I can't support by any means what we all saw, and can perhaps guess what hasn't been caught on tape, but hell why did they leave the other children ? I know we have all learned loads over the last few decades, but damn I don't think we should all be ready to toss our personal rights in the can, and God forbid allow the government tell us how to raise our kids.
Each circumstance has its own story, and Ladeska you seem to have done your home work on this lady, but the inconsistancy of taking one kid and leaving the others, makes me go humm just like all the other situations that I get to observe with Child Protective services. Damn inconsistant! I don't have the answer, like where to start, and just where does it end ? The parenting classes for this stuff, suck. The courts can't change culture, can't change ignorance, and we can't take all the kids away from all the flakey parents, we really can't have the state take over, and they are trying with social workers at school, the good parents have been restricted, and some now paranoid of any structure at all. How does that song go, Its the end of the world and we know it ?

September 24, 2002
8:13 pm
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Ladeska
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You know Molls, I think I heard that they took all the kids away...maybe I misunderstood that, but I think they said that tonight on the news and you're right - it's a tough situation. But I don't know about you or anyone else but I listened to her lawyer tonight and I just wanted to yank him through my television screen! Oh, let's just get her to some parenting classes and give her children back to her! Well, guys, if we don't have the answers to a situation like this, we damned well need to start getting answers. This child - was attacked! And you don't give the child back to an attacker! Plain, pure and simple. And if we don't have a good place to send her, then we've got major, major problems in the good ole USA and we better get to figuring it out.

September 24, 2002
8:29 pm
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gingerleigh
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CNN says that they did leave the other 2 boys with the father.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Mid.....index.html

Inconsistent. Absolutely.

(Hiya Molls, good to see ya! *hug*)

There are some real problems with the system! Yuck. *frown*

Wish I had solutions...

September 24, 2002
8:40 pm
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Ladeska
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Geezzz...what is wrong with this picture??? And I guess with their five cars and all thier different identities and their criminal records - they are still good parents, right? He's a "roofer"... Um, isn't that what the tinker/grifters have been doing for years and years - going from town to town doing the roofing scam? And when they aren't doing that, they are doing some other scam and then "moving on". But, hey - you watch - she'll cry, cry, cry - turn on the tears, sing the blues of how she's just young, made a mistake, get a book deal out of it, be on countless talk shows (which she's already done, btw) and become alot like O.J. Simpson. It was just a mistake, all of it. Oops, beat my child! Give me a few classes, let me pick up litter for a few weeks, do some more community service, give a good act in court and I PROMISE to never do it again, now give me back my damned brat, I mean - my sweet little precious that doesn't deserve to be beaten like that! (more tears) Well, that's the American way and I guess I need to get out my little flag and join the bandwagon of denial! I'm sure she's repented now and knows she did a very wrong thing...hm,m,m....you would have thought she knew that on the walk to the truck, but somehow that didn't seem to matter... My heart is with the child. I know how she feels and poor baby probably doesn't know what to believe. Only that mom probably threatened her with her life if she didn't do what she told her before she handed her over to the police! Sorry guys, I'm just really jaded on this subject. Guess I should stuff it and let justice reign and go get my barf bag. Hopefully the child gets a few nights rest before - she gets put back into hell again.

September 24, 2002
9:21 pm
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Squeezles
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Well SC if you're looking at what kind of reaction you're "I love beating my children" comment would get in order to determine how justified the reactions of the people here to the "My bf has a small penis" post, I think you need to analyse the contexts a little better. It's probably not right for anyone here to say "I think you're an arsehole because you beat your children" etc etc, the same as it's probably not right to say to the (bf/penis) poster that they should "grow up" etc. BUT, I think the point is that (at least where I come from - Australia - and I have no reason to believe that it would be any different in the USA, Canada and the UK etc) child abuse, both physical and sexual, is ILLEGAL! Saying that your bf has a small penis (or your gf has small breasts or whatever), whilst it might be insensitive and not very carey, sharey, warm fuzzy feelings is NOT illegal. I work as a crisis telephone counsellor (basically people with problems ring in for anonymous over the phone counselling for their immediate problems). We are OBLIGATED to encourage them to report the child abuse to the authorities and if they are not willing to do so, then we are obligated to try and trace the call so that steps can be taken to ensure the safety of the children. I believe that all professionals in a position of authority that might come across suspected child abuse (ie nurses, doctors, counsellors, psychologists, social workers etc) are BY LAW required to report this. Surely you can see that child abuse is a bit more serious than saying "I don't think I can love my bf any more because he has a small penis".

There are issues as to what constitutes 'appropriate' (I hate to say that word, but I can think of none better), physical force in trying to discipline kids. I was smacked as a child if I had done something wrong and I have no physical scars and haven't suffered any great emotional trauma from it. I believe that in certain situations smacking is appropriate. HOWEVER, I think that the 'punishment' has to fit the crime ie I think it needs to be enough to get your point that 'you've done something wrong' but not to the point where you are causing significant, long lasting injury (this is of course subjective). Additionally, physical disciplining should NEVER be done in anger. If you hit someone when you are angry, chances are it will be for an injust reason or you will go beyond the bounds of what is suitable/appropriate. I was smacked as a child - I can't really remember specific incidents other than two which stick out clearly, which were as a result of being hit out of anger (once when the milk was left out overnight and my mother lined us all up and because we wouldn't admit to who had done it, she smacked as all on the hand with a wooden spoon, after which my Dad walked in, heard what we were being punished for and apologised because it was actually him that had done it). That said, I think in a general sence smacking has it's role, but when it gets to the point (again how you define that is subjective) that you are saying that
"I get satisfaction seeing them cry and under my control. It feels good to get out my frustrations on those little bastards" that's when it ceases to be appropriate. I think the point that you are trying to get at is that it is OK to say "I don't agree with your views", it's not OK to stoop to name calling etc to do so. That's OK, but surely we have our opinions and we should be able to state them, after all isn't that one of the points of discussing issues here? The fact that there are many people with differing opinions that can therefore offer differing advice? If people wanted just one opinion surely they would just ask a friend and take what ever advice was given (one person; one opinion).

September 24, 2002
9:50 pm
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Alena
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Just checking in here as I do occasionally and could not keep my mouth shut on this one..

Something needs to be done about the child abuse right here in the good old USA. Child abuse comes in many forms, subtle, verbal, physical, most of it goes unseen, until we see the results in a totally messed up adult who has no social skills, no self esteem, and is full of anger ready to explode/implode somehow, someway. This outrage we feel at Toogood's behavior is good for us, if it motivates us to seek out the answers as to how to FIX the problem. Ladeska, I feel for you girlfriend, I'm well aware of your young life and all that you endured, all that you've shared with us anyway....I can only imagine what you feel when you see this abuse. I was not mistreated as a child, not physically abused. Perhaps raised by overly strict, intimidating parents, but nothing like what you suffered, or others for that matter.

I also wanted to rip Toogood's lawyer into shreds, and I also wanted to have her in a room for about 10 minutes and see if she comes out such a tough guy. But that would only make ME feel better, does nothing to solve the problem, does nothing to save Martha or other little "Marthas" across the country who go through this every...single...day..of..their..young...lives. It is pathetic, it is unnerving, it makes me feel guilty for sleeping at night and feeling safe and sound.

Perhaps early parenting education would help. I mean, instead of teaching mindless, useless garbage in junior high and high school, why not make a four year parenting course, including anger management, nutrition, basic child psychology, etc. a part of the curriculum? It may seem weightless, but after all, how many students do NOT go on to have children some time in their lives? And we mold children into adults, good or bad parenting MAKES us what we are...or so I've found in my life's experiences. And okay, some of these young parents never make it to high school graduation, so let's begin in junior high teaching social interraction, acceptable behavior, how to manage conflicts, make it actual classes, make it interesting and rewarding.I know our schools have it as an elective for like one semester, but if it was a requirement it could be very valuable. Oh, I know, it's a big big adjustment, and I suppose the teacher's union would say no way, I dont know. It's a thought. The world is changing, standards are changing, morals are changing, boundaries are changing...we have to make some adjustments. Save the whales, save the seals, save the children in the third world countries..hell, save the children right here, right in your town, right next door.

Something happened to me a couple years ago that I will never,ever forget. I'll also never ever forgive myself. Husband and I were in a restaurant and I saw this sweet, angelic, cherub faced little boy, about 4 being verbally mistreated by his mother. I can still see his little, frail face looking right into my eyes, so sad, so helpless. He had about 4 sisters, older looking and younger looking...they were all treated very well by the mom...this little boy was clearly the outcast. CLEARLY...no doubt about it. For about 20 minutes I watched him be yelled at,scorned, ignored, forced to eat, cry, (silently, though the tears fell)..I cant even describe what I felt, he wasnt slapped around, but he had the "look"....ya know the look? It was all so subtle..the mom was very clever, but behind closed doors I knew he was an abused little boy. I couldn't eat, husband had his back to all this, I made us leave, I coudn't take it anymore. What could I do? I think the only thing I could have done was wait around for her to leave, and then report the license number to child services...they would have laughed me out of town,eh?
I cant stand people who are mean to kids, just cant be politically correct about it. Children should be happy, maybe poor, maybe not go to Disney World, maybe not be able to afford the 150 dollar shoes, but children should feel safe with their parents. God, it makes me sick to think of how that little face could not understand at 4 years old why his/her mommy would want to be mean to him, is this love?? Is this what little ones grow up to ponder when they are abused?? Is this love? Is this the way mommies are supposed to be? Just think of all the questions and confusion they have...it's sick.

Do whatever we can to stop the Toogoods of this country. Put the best heads together and call it a national emergency. No, Moll, I dont want the government to raise my kids either, but I do want a clear line drawn between child rearing and child abuse. It's a crime, and it's a crime that we do nothing about it. I should have done something when I saw that little boy, I wont make that mistake again though. Still doesnt erase my guilt I feel about it. I just pray that he survived her and is okay and maybe I'll see him again someday. I wish I could have him to hug and to love and just cherish.
Sorry for the rambling....geez, been gone a long time...
SC,I'm not sure what you wanted, I dont think I stepped on guidlines.

September 24, 2002
10:20 pm
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Ladeska
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I figure that SC is driving at something particular here, that we should be objective, offer support, advice if it would be taken, if not and someone just wants to rub our faces in it - this being ony the forum that it is - we should probably just not post and vent our anger onto them. For me? I'd have to block this site from my computer and tie my hands behind my back and have a 24 guard to keep me from tearing into them! Sorry, just how I feel.

I guess I look at people like this as someone who has in incurable disease and that they should be locked up, kids taken away from them and we should put our heads together in a very serious way as to - how to prevent it and what to do with these people?

As it lies now - we believe they can be cured and that they just had "moment", fit of passion, ran out of prozac, that time of the month - whatever excuse that looks good and flies well in court. And like Alena said - I do think parenting classes and communication classes for married couples should be mandatory anymore in schools before they graduate. I think we've come to that finite point of "awareness and enlightenment". We just aren't doing anything about it. We're using the same ole tools and the same ole laws that obviously aren't working. However........the lawyers do get more bold, more outlandish, charge higher fees and are more successful in court at gettng these people off and on the streets with a hand slap and that's not with a wooden spoon either. And it's not the equivalent of what happened to this little girl either. Pity that it's not actually....

But it's almost like we are of the mindset of - if we can't really see what goes on behind closed doors, we don't have the right to judge or surmise what goes on from a tape like this. We just can't bring ourselves to really put 2 and 2 together and come up with 4!!!! And I have to aks - why is that? I watched the O'Reilly factor tonight and wanted to vomit at the people who wrote in and said - they think the child should be given back to her and that they believe she was remorseful, etc., etc.

What the hell are we doing here, folks? We're not better than any 3rd world country who could care less if a child gets abused and yet because we own five vehicles and can effectively scam and con people and can hire a creep like this to defend us - it's all okay!

I have seen kids like that myself, out in public and my daughter has seen my eyes roll back in my head and I get this death grip on my arm that says Mom, MOM, DON'T DO IT! But before she knew it I was all over them. Most of the time - it was ugly but the one thing that broke my heart and at the same time made it all worth it was that little child would look at me and go - At least someone stood up to these monsters I have for parents and said NOOOO, it's NOT okay!!! If more of us did that and did turn people in and followed up on it, we might make some people think twice. And if we watched in our own private circles the signals that our given off by the way a family interacts and how a child is acting - and did something about it - they might not feel so smug in what they are doing and getting away with. That's how change happens. We just decide to start doing what we can to turn the tide, where we stand. We make NOISE, we ask questions, we follow up on hunches, we report things to teachers and social workers and we let the children know we care and that we "see"... If only one person had done that for me - I'd have remembered them for the rest of my life. But, all I saw was a turned head, an attitude of not wanting to "get involved" and a downplay towards me that said - well, they do take care of you, put a roof over your head, put food on the table and they said they were sorry - what more do you want? I wanted alot more. I would have been happier in a freaking orphanage. At least I would have had a fighting chance and would have been sewed in from all angles by the "family" and the ties the bind to harbor the dirty little secrets.

September 24, 2002
10:34 pm
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Alena
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I hear ya Ladeska..so what do we actually do about it? I mean, on a larger level? Write congressmen? The old congressman standby? Besides on a personal level, by getting involved, what do we do? Instead of just talking about it on a counseling board, what steps do we take? Actively?

It's such a mess, no easy answer for the ones who are victims right now. Can you imagine that Martha is missing her mother? Absolutely. It's the only mother she knows, good or bad, it's what she KNOWS. So, so sad.

September 25, 2002
12:22 am
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Ladeska
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I don't know about the "missing" part of it. If I was in her shoes I'd be confused, scared and wonder after these strange people got through with me - what mommie dearest would have in store for me. All around - I'm sure she doesn't feel safe anywhere....

I think the things we can do - is become unpassive in the way we deal with things in our own lives, in what we see going on around us. Not that we become Buffy or anything, but that we become "aware" and ready to be actively involved at anytime.

I think that getting involved with different organizations that do take an active part in passing laws for children, like things regarding the law that now allows for child porn to be on the web - only as cartoon, lifelike characters - but depicting the full-blown crime nonetheless. We stand by and go - Oh Wow that is horrible and yet no one hears from us about it.

When we see something going down wrong - we do need to hop on the phone, write letters and make our voices heard, become major pains in the butts!! Search the internet for all the child abuse sites and become involved in what they are doing, the passing of laws, the voices against ones that don't work and are actually bad. When a case is going on that is horrendously not in favor of the child, like this one may turn out to be - call the D.A.'s office involved in prosecuting this woman, send letters to the newspapers in the area, call the congressmen, congresswomen representing us, call represenatives. Even if you only make one phone call or write one letter a day about something that is going wrong or about the passing of something that is right - one voice becomes MANY voices. Put up websites of your own where people can find help, become educated about child abuse, about behavior of pedophiles, abusers, control freaks, charmers, con artists and talk about these things when involved in conversations with other people. Bring it up, start making people aware. Study up on things, know what you are talking about. Stir the pot, be a voice that is to be reckoned with. Write letters to the editors of newspapers, write articles for magazines, tell your own story, write a book, talk to your church group, become active in children's lives, talk to a school group, hand out fliers where hotline numbers and things about child abuse is written and explained. There are a ton of ways to "be involved". We just need to wake up from our sleep and just do it - where we stand. One small pebble makes little ripples in a body of water that becomes great waves the further out it reaches and one motion put into motion - keeps going and going and going, gaining momentum and speed. Power is knowledge utilized.

September 25, 2002
12:25 am
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Ladeska
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Most importantly, get involved in one child's life where you suspect things are less than honorable. Even the fact that one person would risk something by reaching out - means the world to a small child sitting behind the bars of a very real prison, from which there seems to be no real escape. Even if they cannot be effectively rescued from that prison, they know someone cared enough to at least try.... Is there a price to be paid for this? Always. And there is a price to be paid - if we don't. We always make a choice. The fence - doesn't exist.

September 25, 2002
10:03 am
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Goodmorning!

My back is feeling better, but still sore. How's yours Ladeska?

What am I looking for?

Well, nothing in particular... basically only 2 general formats for someone who obviously has a serious problem:

(1) Express how we feel about it respectfully (not so that we're particularly giving the poster respect, but think about everyone else who gets to read it!).

(2) Give the poster some solid feedback about their behavior, and ask some digging questions.

In short, here's a quickie example of #1, and #2.

***************************

(1) I was beaten as a child, and I have no forgiveness for my beaters. I actually hate them, and am filled with rage at anyone who beats their children. If you were in a room w/ me, as much as I know beating someone is wrong, I'd love to rip you apart. Physical & verbal abuse has damaged me permanently, and I'm still recovering. My whole psyche is damaged.

(2) That's why you beat your children? Really? So you can feel good? Does it really make you feel good? I think you should let someone else watch your children and get some real help for yourself before you ruin your child's life and keep your life going as it is. Do you like your life? Filled w/ rage and anger? Who are you angry at?

***************************

People who come here, no matter how wrong they are, are not our punching bags for our own issues (guidelines). We can "realize/recover" our issues in ways other than throwing bricks and bombs at people when they do wrong. They came here for a reason. I'd like it if we can try to find out what the reason is, and keep them here long enough to learn from them.

September 25, 2002
10:31 am
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I see your point, SC - but I think for the most part in order to follow the guidelines we would just not respond to the thread. So it would die out, the original poster would leave in a huff, and nothing would be done. I agree that your hypothetical responses above would be ideal, but how many times do forces collide to create an ideal scenario?

I was physically abused by my mom when I was little, up until I was in college. I have actually learned to develop a good relationship with her, now that she's on meds (har har har).

But to see someone write that would make me shiver with dread, and go off to my online diary and write a 5 page rant about child abuse, rather than control myself and respond objectively. I mean, I totally respect what you're trying to say here and agree with you 100%, but in the same token - everyone here has issues, some of them terribly severe, and to ask someone actively grieving about their childhood abuse to suck it up and be nice is just not realistic.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about: Like I miscarried a month ago. But I cannot for the life of me offer good advice to women who are pregnant right now. Can't do it. I don't hate them, but my own issues prevent it, see?

Like on a pregnancy/infant loss support page I visit, a pregnant woman posted about how terrible the women on the board are behaving because we are jealous of pregnant women and we should "feel joy for those who acn do what you cannot" - I went berserk on her and then dropped out of the board. To ask me to respond empathically to her would be like telling me to go poke a knitting needling in my eye.

September 25, 2002
10:32 am
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Morning SC! Backs are a pain, aren't they? Mine is better, but it comes and goes, glad yours is on the mend. Yes, I understand what you wrote here. And the examples you provided are elastic enough that you can vent somewhat, or at least let someone know what your position is without ripping them apart. From that point on, I guess, for people that felt as I do - I'd just have to never open that thread again. Silence for me in instances like that is - quite golden. I'm sure you would agree! First and foremost, these threads don't need to turn into a war that can never really be won with words anyways. And it would upset alot of other people reading. In the end, would do far more good than harm. We might feel better for the moment, but have to dig out for months and still not even be able to adequately assess the real harm. I understand. I have a hammer laying right by my computer to bang my hands with or my head - whatever's needed!!!

September 25, 2002
10:38 am
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On the foster care issue - I took a class in social work with children and families last spring and they were all gung-ho about foster care, even had an apple-cheeked psychologist who was a foster mom come in and speak about her experiences.

Then, my roommate (who was a bridesmaid at my wedding) moves in and one night, over wine and cigarettes, she talks about growing up in foster care, and being a special needs adoption case because she was 7, and was in a family with 5 children. All 4 of the 5 got adopted, the oldest 1 was over 18 by that time.

She and her sister were kept together thoughout the foster system. At one point pulled from one home infested with lice and ticks and suffering from malnutrition. Another home - 3 girls molested for 6 years straight by their foster father.

In Florida we're now under federal investigation for our Dept. of Children and Families. They aparently "lost" several children under their care. A local newspaper hired a private detective and found5 of the "missing" children in a week. GIve me a freaking break.

On paper, great idea, but listening to her bleak story, and her attempts to lead a normal life, were a big eye opener for me.

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