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A new "Board" on All About Counseling? Your vote counts.
December 17, 2002
11:10 am
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Anonymous
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Anger.

Anger is an emotion. It drives us towards getting to the bottom of things, releases frustration, it helps us work into and through a serious "problem/issue".

But, it can also be toxic to other people. And it many times gets "flung" on people because a person can become very absorbed and involved with their anger.

I'd like to create a board for people in that place. A place where they can get support from people who are able to "go over to the anger board" and be okay with some level of toxicity/negativity, whatever you want to call it. People view it and think of it differently. Some people love anger, and embrace it being expressed by others.

But it has been seen and known to pollute the General Boards, and I'd like to be able to "ask" someone who is having a loud anger expression to have a place to do that, safely, for them, and everyone else. I want people who are tripping over the guidelines with anger to have a place to trip on the guidelines (a little), rather than allowing bad example setting with the guidelines, toxicity, etc in the General Boards, or rather than blocking that person from this site who is going through an unusually tough time, but getting into an important & difficult issue for themselves.

Please vote.

Yes (create the board) or No (don't create the board).

December 17, 2002
11:21 am
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Yes

December 17, 2002
11:48 am
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I'm in!

December 17, 2002
12:02 pm
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yes

December 17, 2002
12:16 pm
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Dunno, if I'm hurt by things here, its not the anger, usually. It is other topics that make me cringe, and then I stay away from that thread. But that's to be expected, isn't it? I mean: It is to be expected that people who come here because of their problems will sometimes find others that *klick* whith their respective triggers. Anger is propably just more obvious than others, because it tends to express itself. Depression or fear often doesn't.

If you think that you need to put it away somewhere else - who would go there? Angry people? People who can give the best help whith anger?

I'd rather vote No

December 17, 2002
12:40 pm
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My vote is no. Anger in my view is not an emotion we must compartmentalize too often in life (that is what makes so many of us sick inside, that stuffing of anger). We have an opportunity to learn how to deal with anger in our daily lives here on this board, and I think isolating it to a different board would send a further message that we need to isolate anger in our daily lives as well. Anger isn't something that we should strive to eliminate in ourselves. We have this emotion for a reason, often as a protection or a flag to us to let us know that something isn't right. What many of us need to learn to do is to deal best with our anger in a healthy way and get it out and away, as part of our lives, natural, expected, and acceptable.

December 17, 2002
1:07 pm
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Durrr, I mean anger is an emotion that we have to compartmentalize too much in life... arg, you probably get what I mean.

December 17, 2002
3:34 pm
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As all of you know, in real life, there are consequences for one's actions. Expressing anger can evoke some of those consequences. It seems that the SC is having difficulty with trying to find a balanced solution to the problem of anger on this board.

I would have to vote NO, myself, for the same reasons that eve and GL express. My problem with anger was systematically developed over 40 plus years of being co-opted to compromising my own feelings for the sake of someone else. Or risk social isolation.

I do have some other solutions to offer, though. Learn to be assertive with what is happening. Use "I" statements when things affect you. "I am feeling defensive right now" is fair and non-judgemental. It assigns no one responsibility for your feelings and it lets the entrant know that you hear them and that you care...but you do not desire to engage in anger with them.

Even having some kind of assertiveness/communication educational materials present could assist those of us with anger to rely on these communication styles to more effectively express our anger. I don't know anyone who honestly doesn't want to be a powerful communicator.

Another idea: When it is getting too hot in there, get out of the kitchen. When a thread is getting "too toxic," board members can say so...something like, "I am feeling really uncomfortable with this discourse. I see the anger here and I can't stay here." They then move on to other threads. We all do this anyway, but we rarely say why. I could have stated this on TH's site rather than going off and creating my own thread and ranting.

What if you have a maniac? S/he entered mad and stays mad and gets rude at every opportunity? Give them a warning that they will have a 24 hour cooling off period enforced if they don't start following guidelines. If they don't listen, block them...but only for 24 hours. It gives time to regain perspective.

Make sure that if you are playing referee, that you have your own emotions in check first. The maniac could benefit from an assertive person staying with him/her and remaining objective and calm as they explode. When you feel that you are losing your objectivity, don't be afraid to say so, though. You are human. Watch the number of "you" statements used...this is an indicator of an attack. This media has the advantage of being able to go back and review EXACTLY what was said and for it to be a learning experience for everyone.

December 17, 2002
4:42 pm
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Tez.

My vote - "Yes".

My unsolicited reasoning:

The SC then has a another alternative to offer besides just banning a 'poster' who is self indulgent in repetitively and inappropriately expressing their anger.

As SC pointed out, an Anger Board affords those who can handle it, an opportunity to at least practice tolerance - the most elementary level prerequisite for the practice of compassion for a suffering human being - and at most to offer nurture in order to ease the pain of a 'mirroring' exposure of the hidden source of the angst felt by the angry poster.

December 17, 2002
5:55 pm
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Ouch Tez. That feels like a veiled attack.

Self indulgent. Inappropriate. They sound like judgements to me.

Maybe "crying out for help" comes in different forms. I can see that, yesterday, mine was anger. I even labeled the thread with the word "anger" in it. No one should have been surprised.

December 17, 2002
6:39 pm
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I say yes. because for many, or some, anger has been the bigges obstacle to finding a healthier path. No matter my intentions, I will still poison myself with anger, and I never learned a truely socially appropriate way to express this.

December 18, 2002
2:10 am
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Good Idea! YES

December 18, 2002
8:44 am
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I vote yes.

Releasing the anger felt can be cleansing, and if there are folks who can handle reading that anger they may be able to help the angry deal with it.

A safe to vent without risking losing touch with others here might be valuable.

If it is just a place where anyone can say I am a stuupid F*!K just cuz they don't like my opinion...that would be different from a place to vent outside anger.

SC ...would there still be "rules" - no personal attacks etc. or would it be "no holds barred"?

December 18, 2002
11:40 am
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yep, I like the idea, give it a shot anyway. You can always fold if it doesn't work out..

December 18, 2002
12:11 pm
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In my group last week we discussed emotions, Anger is indeed a valad emotion. We just need to learn how to express it in a healthy way.

I vote yes.

December 18, 2002
7:01 pm
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yes too

December 19, 2002
4:49 pm
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Scherza.

You said, " Self indulgent. Inappropriate. They sound like judgements to me. "

Yep!! They are. Unfortunately for her, SC has the odious job of making judgements about what to do about posters who self-indulge in repetitive(keyword, inappropriate (keyword), uncontrolled (key word) venting of their negative emotions. It would seem to me that emotional maturity implies having learnt how to avoid these self-indulgences.

Fortunately for me, not being the webmaster, I do not have to make these judgements. In fairness to SC, I would like to see her have the alternative of offering the emotionally immature an opportunity to learn life's lessons in a safe non-rejecting environment.

December 19, 2002
5:08 pm
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So far, the tally shows

3 No
1 undecided (Janes, said on another thread she's undecided)
9 Yes

First, let me say, here me out, okay?

And this is all about GUIDELINES. That's it. It's about anger + guidelines not mixing sometimes, as we've seen a lot the past 1.5 years. And what subsequently happens when the guidelines are broken, is that new visitors or people here who are vulnerable, are either hurt, harmed, or a bad example is set.

I'm suggesting calling it "anger" board because it's more times than not "anger" (a deep frustrating issue) which brings us to guideline breaking... and lots of times even a subtle "covert" guideline snap is anger induced, but not admitted to be "anger/a problem" or worked out in full because (a) we don't want to admit it to ourselves or one another (b) we are fearful of breaking guidelines, so we bottle it... like Cici was saying, lots of us haven't had the luxury of learning & practicing healthy anger expression, so we decide not to express anything rather than yell, attack, defend, etc ... but, I'm open to calling the new board something else. Got any ideas? The "guideline board"... corny?

To answer a few questions:

Eve: anyone/everyone can go to the anger board, but it's only threads that are breaking *guidelines* due to an anger expression that will be asked to finish up over there. We'd know the thread/topic/particular individual(s) was over there because me, or someone else, would ask them to talk over there rather than risk guideline breaking where new visitors (I stress new visitors) would read these guideline breaking threads (to know what breaking a guideline means, read the guidelines. Breaking any guideline = take the issue up/finish up in the anger board).

Ginger: it's not to isolate or compartmentalize anger. It's not the anger... it's the guideline flinging and unhealthy/innappropriate abrasiveness that is mixed in. Anger isn't all that, but anger can cause us to *behave* that way. I've just seen it a lot in the last year, and I just want another way to work these things out w/o hurting or scaring a new visitor who might read the thread.

Scherza: yes, I should put the links for assertivenss/communication as direct links off the discussion boards... it would be a good resource. The 24hr block is a good idea too, but I've thought about it at length, and tried it somewhat w/ a few here (syqg, lisset, benny_boy, mossrose, nightwind - - who are all permanently banned now, btw... they needed the anger board), and found that it's got built in problems like (a) causes people to be isolated/hurting/super hot for those 24hrs (b) brings about rage filled anger emails directed at me, and subsequent hate towards me for blocking them (c) probably doesn't solve a good deal of these situations, because the problem is still there & stands a good chance of being brought up again in the same fashion or bottled up. So, instead, they'd get an opportunity to yell, attack, defend, and sling mud (guideline break - and constantly be asked to "follow guidelines" by everyone/anyone who participates) over in the anger board w/o polluting the threads for new visitors. If guidelines then couldn't be met in a certain reasonable amount of time in the anger board (say 3-4 days) THEN they would be blocked/banned.

Cici: I sometimes fall back in the innapropriate expression of anger boat too. And if I was someone who was utilizing these boards for myself like all of you, I'd want the anger board rather than be blocked or be allowed to hurt/bad example set to new visitors who need this place. I too, have my buttons, and if pushed a couple times, who knows! I'd like to go over and work it out someplace w/o hurting new visitors/vulnerable members.

Janes: still the same guidelines are intact, but I won't block that person until a "reasonable" amount of attempts to meet the guidelines... say, 3-4 days. After which, the guideline breakers would be blocked.

December 19, 2002
5:17 pm
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I keep waffling back and forth on this one. I like the idea of having a safe place where it is OK to express anger, and a good alternative to give to people who are having a rough time interacting on the general board. But at the same time, it seems very "kid's table"-like. Grownups get to stay on General, but angry kids must go on the anger threads.

But is that necessarily a bad thing? Maybe it's the opportunity to do here what we cannot in real life... lovingly inform other adults (and ourselves) that they are acting in an emotionally immature way and that they need to take it to the anger table, or take a time out, or something like that? My first reaction is wow, that's insulting. But my second thoughts are that hm, how many times have I been in a meeting where participants are engaging in childish behavior, empire building and inappropriate angry remarks, and I would have loved to tell them to take a time out. And I've had times where people should have told me to get back in the sandbox for an hour and come back when I was ready to play nice again with the adults.

I guess I change my vote to *either-or*, I can work with either setup.

December 19, 2002
5:37 pm
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Me too Ginger. I'm a little waffled on it too.

I'd love to let everyone go gangbusters and work it out in the General Boards... ya know, give people 3-4 days to work it out over here, and we'd all keep saying "you're breaking guidelines"... and I'd say a prayer everyday that it would soon resolve and that the person would learn and grow from it, and pray that no new visitors were reading that thread.

It's the new visitor thing that cinches it for me.

Remember syqg? She was a repeat offender w/ the guidelines, she has bottled rage and hasn't learned healthy/appropriate anger expression... I didn't want her to be blocked because of it... I finally did because it was too toxic, and she didn't want to work w/ "ME" in email. She would have been better off here in a safe place w/ the rest of you.

I'm not saying everyone is gonna get their hay day in the new board, I'm saying that if we NEED IT, we've got it... it's to protect/foster new visitors, super hurting people who come in here... that's it...

Plus, it's a benefit for some of the codependent people here w/ shaky boundaries. It allows them or any of us to set a firm boundary w/ verbal abusiveness. We can "ask" people to respect our airspace. We all need some boundaries, and this gives us another backup.

I know, it's a waffled issue, but when I think about new visitors, again, it's cinched for me.

December 19, 2002
6:04 pm
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Hm, you bring up a good point about new visitors. What about a "training" ground threadset? You know, introduce new visitors there, introduce the guidelines, maybe give people pointers on how to communicate better? Instead of calling it "Kids Table" or "Angry People Place" or "Haven for the Emotionally Immature", it could be viewed as a place where people learn site ettiquette and such? Just the inkling of an idea, not sure if there's anything to it.

December 19, 2002
10:38 pm
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Sorta "how to get started" and we would all be "nice"

December 20, 2002
1:26 am
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WOW. I really like these ideas! Communication training and bulletin board etiquette sound like really great ideas. Maybe create a required interactive board orientation program which is the gateway to being able to contribute to the threads....? Even have pop-up windows that identify guideline breakages...like a spell checker...?

I think I am "middle of the road" with my vote now. I think that it would have been helpful for me...in my last outburst...to step aside with someone who could stick with me without letting me make them mad...then I could have gotten focused on the true cause of my anger instead of lashing out and focusing on the others around me and upsetting them.

Tez: I think I got upset with you earlier b/c the shoes seemed to fit me too well at the time. I do see the emphasis on key words that you made, however. But, you showed me a piece of my shadow and I didn't like it at the time...but I am one that WANTS TO LEARN about that shadow of mine and how I might be able to use the energy in there to create something great. There is a LOT of energy in shadows...I want to channel it to something constructive....

Tez, You seem like God. You just come out of nowhere and say something profound...and unnerving...and then you are silent. I don't hear from you in months...and then POOF...there you are...telling me about myself...in a way that was (briefly) hard to hear. Truth be told, however, you didn't aim this at me and I know it...it just fit me for that day. I really WAS being self-indulgent and inappropriate! It made me mad to see that on the screen...and then I owned it...about an hour later...and I have a new way of looking at myself that has seemed to changed everything for me in really powerfully positive and subtle ways.

SC: Why don't you call the anger board "The Lion's Den?" ehehe

December 20, 2002
1:38 am
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Have any of you seen the movie "32 Plays of Glenn Gould?" There is a scene in it where he calls up people from an outdoor pay phone the the first sentence he uses is, "Could you possibly indulge me for one moment?" He was VERY self-indugent in his lifetime...and he made no bones about it. He knew what he was doing and he asked people permission to do it with them!

I think that one has to self-indulge sometimes to get any meaningful internal work done. 🙂

December 20, 2002
6:33 am
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I think I'll have to say no on this one, been thinking for a few days. I never thought I would support any sort of sensorship. Just like some of the music out there, which is anger, I really don't want to see it. I know the anger has to get out, but if every one is angry on that thread couldn't it implode ?
I would much rather see a three strikes rule that seems much more appropriate for emotional modification .

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