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a message to Brenda
March 13, 2000
8:42 am
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hazza
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Hi Brenda,
I have been trying to catch up and read all the posts but firstly i will admit i have not read everything thoroughly.

Okay, i am gonna tell you what happened with me, becuase it may be of interest. I am NOT saying this is advice, it isn't but it another womans experience.

we have talked before about alcoholism havent we. What you wrote about your husband coming home drunk and saying he was an alcoholic, that happened to me too. my partner even spoke to alcoholics anonymous on the phone when he was drunk.

So, this is how it happened with me. he came back drunk and admitted he had problems, and i think great! maybe now we will get someplace. But whne he sobered up, he went straight back into denial.

yet, he isn't drinking now! he is looking for work, he has taken exams and passed really good grades. so what happened?

Okay, everyone says dump him- he is a bum. and they are right. he will not change unless he wants to -period.

so how did my partner get there?
well, one day he gets invited to go to a party with MY friends! do i want to go? hell no, i know these people and although they are friends i know that there will be drink and drugs there, i know he will get drunk, so i don't want anypart of it. i am sad, on this night, i get on the interent and come to this site, but it doesn't stop that feeling of enevitability, i know what will happen. He goes out, he is going to pick up my ex boyfriend! and drive him the party (bizarre i know but we were all friends at the time) when he leaves i phone my ex and say to him, " look, he will get drunk, don't rely on him for a lift home okay " but my ex listens to my partner saying " i wont drink tonight" and he believes him ,becuase my ex is the sort of gut who beleives the best in everyone! so off they go.

i am home alone, angry and hurt, ant one am he is not home, i fall asleep. i have sunk to the very bottom now, i know that no amount of love will help this man. I can't bear the thought of what will happen if i leave him, will he get worse, will he end up another statistic? but i have finally and genuinely decided that enough is enough, i can't help him anymore this is his life and i was not put on this earth to be his mother. if he ends up in the gutter, there is nothing i can do, it is sad but true.
So, four am comes along and he is not home, i just know he is drunk. i phone his mobile, he answers and tells me he is in the car waiting for my ex ( this is alcoholic for " i am trying to sober up enough to find the hole to put my car keys")

He tuns up home about 5 am. pretty much sober by now but obviously having had a heavy night. I scream my head of at him, all the frustration for all that time comes out. i have had enough. at this point though, i think i was still not quite at rock bottom, had he said at that point he was sorry and wouldn't ever do it again, i would probably have fallen for it again.
morning comes and he tells me what happened the night before, he got drunk, he was doing coke with my friends and was sick in the bathroom and my friend had to help him "clear up".
Something switches in me there and then Brenda, a switch was tuned that has never been turned back since. suddenly i know what it means to have really had enough. this is my last boundary, he had made a promise not to do coke again but he didn't even remember the conversation.
I scream at him to leave. i want him out that day, he goes through the motions of phonning his friends to see if he can live there, but i mean it, i tell him i want him gone, he makes me sick to my stomach and i want to forget i had ever met him he said " don't be stupind you can't pretend you have never known me!" and i said "watch me" i could quite easily have never seen him again and been happy. i had been SO in denial before, he was paying me no rent, but had enough money for beer alright. he didn't work he was rude, he was taking me for a ride big time and i don't think either of us had realised it. I honestly think he didn't realise how much he was taking advantage of me any more than i did, that was just the way BOTH of us had let things get.
so he goes out, my ex comes to my house, he is so angry, my boyfriend left the party without him, he has left his phone in the car. I phone my boyfriend, to say bring the phone back, i can hear in his voice that he is surprised that i only wanted the phone, he says " is that all you wanted?" i say " why else would i want to speak to you? i have said everything i want to say, i have nothing welse to say except talking about anything to do with you moving out" which mean truthfully.

It is only becuase i mean't it, that he was forced to see himself for what he really was, i told hi how everyone was laughing at him, he was the complete joke to my friends they were just getting him smashed to laugh at him.

I will never know whether the reason he came home that day was becuase there really was no room for him at his friends or if that was rubbish, but he made the decision to change for himself.

I don't even remember how it happened that he came to stay! i dopn't remember him making any promises and me agreeing it was always a case of " okay you can stay until you get another place to live"
but things changed, i told him i was sick of the fact that i had paid for everything. i used to work but had to leave my job through a breakdown, why should i pay it all out of my savings when he was getting unemployment money for both of us!! see how much denial i had been in?
I made him pay the rent from now on, he pays the credit card bill payments for me now. I am just taking back some of the moeny he has had of me. He has stopped drinking and he knows if i ever smell a drop of beer on his breath again then it is over.
i will be homest and say my plans for the future do not include him, but in the last few months i have grown to like him again, he has been more helpful and supportive and has helped me in ways others would not. the nice part of him was always the most caring person i ever met, but the drinker in him was the nastiest person i had ever met.

i can say if i would have been happier alone, maybe i would maybe not. alot of why i stayed with him was becuase it was more practical, the relationship was over and i told him that, i said we would basically be starting again. But i am very much independent of him now, and the less we rely on each other the happier we have been,.

there is alot to be said for having company, to the nights spent in front of the TV, the fact that what ever our dysfunctions we do love each other. But we are both working alone in curing our own problems and have found that we can be supportive of each others efforts to do so. This is not a fairytale love story anymore. it is in reality 2 people together, who have problems but are trying their best, there are arguments, neither of us idolises the other anymore, and i am sure that in a way we are together now only becuase is was finacially impracticle to seperate. But as i said, we are starting to like each other a bit more! we may have no future, maybe we will grow to trust each other again, but right now i am not going to trust him 100% maybe that will grow, but i feel i have a supportive person who is with me. he is not my knight in shining armour but then i don't think anyone on this planet is. There are no illusions about the relationship now, it is a pretty much bruised association of 2 people who fell in love but really put each other through hell! but we don't put each other through that hell now and i must admit, i am glad to come home and see him (most of the time).

i am now no longer afriad that he will drink, that is a big weight of my mind.
why?
1, i don't think he will drink, he is sick of how it has ruined his life.
2, even if he does, there is nothing i can do and i will ask him to leave if he does, i am not afraid of losing him anymore, if it works ou then great, he has some really nice qualities that i have not found in other people, but if it doesn't work then i can't say after all we have been through i would be that surprised!

so, it is no bed of roses once you have had the trust destroyed. you never see that person in the same light once they have cuased you so much pain. You can however build up a new relationship, but only with change on both sides.
we are only still talking because he changed becuase HE wanted to, for HIM.
I can only be with him now because i have woken up to him. i know that unless he changes for good we have no future, but i am prepared to wait and see what happens. he is no longer in that special place in my heart that would enable him to hurt me and that is sad, but he made that happen not me.

I learnt alot through all this, my notions of love were fantasy. i though a good relationship was where you loved someone so much it hurt! i know now that true love means 2 people who want to be together but don't need to be together. it is sad that i am with someone but don't think they are the most wonderful person on this earth, but i think what i feel now is much more based in reality. i see him as another mortal human being. but as 2 mortals, we are starting to enjoy each others company, we look forward to showing each other things that we see on tv or read, we tell each other when we are feeling stressed and rub each others heads when we have a headache! i am starting to think that this is a more healthy relationship, even though the future is open, to what we had before. But only becuase he changed for himself.

You ask the question Brenda, " are all relationships like this" well no they aren't, and most people here, including myself! would say "go find someone who deserves you, this man will never change" but as you can see sometimes they do change, but look at the price you have to pay for it!
i am glad now that we are still together, but if i could turn back the clock to before i ever met him, i would. The pain has been so great, but i have learnt and grown so much.

This is just my experience of what hitting rock bottom did to my life, and his. the trouble is we are both very stubborn people who didn't give up when we should have! but there can be a future, but it would never be without the scars of these hard times, but in a way those scars we have are also starting to become bonds between us too. i am very much alone but with him.
i hope that this helped you to see that all the fears and hopes you feel have also been felt in part at least by others, but please please please don't live in denial anymore.
you must go it alone, just like i had to, if he chooses to follow then great, but either way, you are the stronger person in your relationship right now. you can't help him, so please help yourself. if he wants to change he must come to that conclusion himself, you cannot make him do it. it doesn't mean the end of everything, but it does mean the end of things the way they are now. i bet you anything if you leave him, he will not do all the things you worry about, but it is those worries that keep you in denial not confronting what is really going on here, how may more times is he going to come home drunk before you say to yourself enough is enough? until you do that nothing will change. all you can do is to say to him he has a choice, you or the drink, but you must mean it and truthfully be prepared to carry though, if you don't it will keep happening again and again. He will not wake up one dayand think, okay my life is still exactly the same as yesterday, but i think yes, maybe i do have a drink problem. it won't happen like that, he will only realise when his life gets to the point when it is impossible for him to fail to notice he has a problem, and even then it is entirely up to him whether he confronts it or not. i will i had done something so much sooner, i would have saved myself so much pain, but i was afraid, i felt i was the only one looking after him whan he couldn't even look after himself. Dont do the same thing, confront this issue, if you feel like you boundaries have been trodden on, then it is time to make a decision, don't go looking for answers to his problems look for answers to your. sort out what you need to be independent. If he comes with you and gets healthy great, but only he can decide for him and only you candecide for you.
well sorry for the very long post!!
i hope that some of this has been useful to you, like i said just my experience of how the switch got flicked in me and i took control of myself. hugs to you, i know how terrible this can be but from what i read you are getting real close to seeing your own worth again. remember who you are, i forgot myself for a long time, but i feel i am getting back to being me!
HugsHazza

March 13, 2000
2:14 pm
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BROC
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Hazza,

Time for us to disagree....again. I applaud your conviction, both with telling him to leave and now with working on things.

BUT-

He DID not change on his own. Lets make that CRYSTAL clear. You spoke of you calling for your ex's phone and how suprised he was that you didn't want more. Why? Because he KNEW that you really didn't mean it. He knew that he would eventually get back into the nest. Shit, I played that song with Shannon for almost four years. He knows your buttons. Now, I know what your going to say. But hes paying the bills, hes more attentive, yadda yadda yadda.

Hey, I did the same thing. Hell, I didn't drink, do drugs, and I make $200k per year. BUT, I did other things. Party all night, bed other woman, etc. That was my addiction. Each time I broke her heart it was a little harder to make things as they were before, but I had one ace in my hand, as I had all the times before. Her dependency on me. Now, don't get me wrong, I had dependency on her too! But she is the rel. addict as you are in yours. You guys will justify, deny, whatever you have to do to get back to the way things were, jsut like we do. IT KILLS THE PAIN.

So, of course hes being a good boy. Fuck, I wrote down a list of more than 30 things I was sorry for and would change in me. She cried, she just couldn't believe it. She showed her friends, and asked them, quote "Do you really think its for real this time" Her friends, as codependent as her, said, sure shannon, you don't write stuff like that if you haven't really CHANGED! Bullshit. Thats the change of fools. We know what it takes to really change. LOTS AND LOTS of hard work. Relizing your issues, and getting help from them. (THERAPY!) SUPPORT GROUPS, READING, ETC.

So, again, I'm happy for you. I am happy you feel happy, and don't mean to rain on your parade. But think back to ALL that we have learned, and remember it applies to ALL of us. Addicts are addicts. They don't get better without couseling and support groups. It just doesn't happen. Is he in AA? NA? What counseling is he doing? And I know our arguement regarding counseling. Yes, you MIGHT be able to do it on your own, but I have asked around about this, and the chances are nill. For him, no way. First, your body will crave it like theres no tomorrow. And then theres the reason he does it in the first place; he is an empty well, and numbs his pain by doing that.

So, I do hope for you Hazza things work out as you want them too. But from a friend, I have to say your in denial.

Shit, I have a great example for you.

I told my whole story in the instructions for life thread. I didn't get too, or so I think, about the first girl I dated after my 6 months of self imposed celebicy (sp?) to get off MY addiction. Not to mention all my friends thought I was a nut case and abandon me, it was horrible. (Read it if you haven't already, and don't skim ;0))

Anyway, this girl, Diane, is 28. Great looking, nice figure, college educated, millionaire family, ......alcoholic. She is the daughter of a client of my mothers. Anyway, towards the end of my six months of hell I look her up to see whats she has been up too. (We hooked up a few times during Shannon and I's makeups and breakups) Anyway, I have noone to do anything with, am just starting to "figure" it all out, and just wanted someone to go to the movies with, really! Turns out she has been away at a treatment facility for the same six months.....a really nice prison. PRISON. Anyway, we talk about our woes and she sounds good. She has learned so much, as been through tons of counsleing, and is really ready to make a run of it. (By the way, she was sentenced there because she had gotton THREE DUI's in three years, and finally not even her parents money could keep her out of jail) So, you would think she had FINALLY learned her lesson. This was her LAST chance. LAST. Next time, it was the real prison for a long time. (Like your threat for him to finally leave when you REALLY meant it, right?) So, she gets out, and we start hanging out because this is the ONLY person that understands what I am going through. She speaks the language (talks the talk) and I am just amazed. Well, I discount the fact she has been through all this shit (deny) because she says she has changed. And when I look at it, it looks good to me. Again, who WOULDN"T have learned their lesson. ESPECIALLY WHEN THE NEXT TIME YOUR GOING TO PRISON. RIGHT!!!???? So, I ignore all the obivous signs and start dating her. This is after all my counseling, hers, etc. Stupid, huh? Anyway, she is so smart with all this stuff. She really could teach it. She tells me she FULLY understands what I went through with Shannon and how hollow and sick she is, JUST like she used to be. How fucked up Jim is for hooking up with her, etc. (Again, read my other thread for the details) Anyway, its within three months or so that I first start seeing signs that she is still the same old girl she always was. Her self esteem is still SHIT. I look at a girl for two seconds, and she chews my head off. JUST LIKE SHANNON did. I see a good friend of mine that I hadn't seen in almost a year (female), give her ONE hug, say about 10 words, then she leaves. She is livid! The same shit as all the woman before. I repeated my pattern! I tell her this, and that it would be a good idea to take a break and do some more work (apart). She flies off the handle. Broc, your sick! You fucked up! That wans't an innocent hug, you were giving off "vibes" to her telling her your available! What? She had lost it. She became uncontrollable. I had to change my home and cell numbers. She left more than 50 mean and nasty messages. She sent me more than 100 nasty emails. I called her parents and told them one more anything and I was going to get a restraining order. They stopped. Two weeks ago I get three collect calls from the local jail from her, I don't accept them. I call a friend in the police force and he finds out that she violated her probabiton, had two warrents issued for her arrest, and when they finally caught up with her she had drugs and drug parafellinia on her. (I forgot to mention she still spoke to her ex while we were dating - white collar druggie and alcoholic) Obviously hooked up with him again.

So, my point? People in the face of certain and brutal punishment will usually succomb to their addictions. Usually every time. UNLESS, they get help and FUCKING APPLY it.

So, lets here about your bf in 30 days, 60 days. I would lay all I own on his returning to his old ways. Its not you Hazza, its just the way he is built. And until you quit enabling him (make him fend for himself, room and board, etc) he will never get to HIS low point. It is only there that he has any chance of ever really learning his lesson. I say any chance because even when at your lowest, people still don't get it.

B-

March 13, 2000
2:29 pm
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Brenda
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Dear Hazza
just caught your post, but I must say this ( I will come back later and post a longer, detailed post )
I realised that it was not all HIM sure he was abusive, neglecting and distant, but I stayed there and took it. I was guilty of verbal abuse at times myself when I had had it. No one is responsible for their actions except themselves, I could no longer say "well I acted like that becaaaause." I was empty, a caretaker, self value was down, boundaries were weak, looking for happiness and purpose in HIM instead of myself and life, blaming my family of origin ( I no longer do this ) him and past ex, ( sure they were abusive but I danced the toxic dance with them, I needed to take care of myself in those relationships (exception of childhood) and I didnt, I needed to take and own my inventory, but I didnt, I needed to respect and love MYSELF but I didnt, I needed to own my own reality, but I didnt.......
IT IS THE FINAL STAGE OF RECOVERY AND HEALING WHEN YOU TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN HAPPINESS, HEALING AND RELATIONSHIPS. Our relationships reflect our inner selves......
post more later.
hang in there girl, this could be the best part, and the hardest part, of your life. Dont give in, feel your anger, responsibilty will come later.

March 14, 2000
3:56 am
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hazza
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Broc,
You are wrong, i DID want him to go, i promise you that, that is the whole point.
This was not a case of playing games. my whole point was how i had reached my rock bottom, that is why things are very different now. Not a point to argue i am telling you! i know what you mean so please understand that this was no game playing- it was real. end of story.
Hazza

March 14, 2000
4:00 am
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hazza
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ALso he is no longer being enabled. that is the point. if he doesn't get his shit together he leaves. he is getting his shit together, if he repeats, he leaves. end of story

March 14, 2000
2:48 pm
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Brenda
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see my post on hazza is back..
Hey Broc, you dont know Hazza personally, she is taking great strides considering, but it is in her best interest to consider what i suggested on the "hazza is back" thread....just a thought. Everyone is an individual and everyone heals in different ways, calling her on her codep may be good, but maybe its a bit over the top saying shes in full denial, part of recovery is getting angry, building boundaries and then taking responsibility.It seems she is in the anger stage and on her way to taking responsibility stage, everything in gods time.
I am sorry about your gf Broc, but dont you think it will be a while before you can really attract healthy women. Give yourself some time, especially in the female dept, since it was one of your active addictions.

March 15, 2000
3:27 pm
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BROC
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Brenda,

Which gf are your referring too? Shannon?

B-

March 16, 2000
8:50 am
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Broc,

The longer my husband is in jail...the more I am ready to go on. You make so much sense...it won't be better when he gets out...no matter how many years he is in there. Nothing will have changed.

I have been visiting him still every Saturday night...but the love is fading and he can see it.

There shall be no more dating for me. Because I am a loser magnet. Three marriages are enough...

Who ever said "It is better to have loved and lost...than to never have loved at all" really didn't know what they were talking about.

Am I bitter? I guess I am at this point...angry...stages I suppose. More angry at myself...what a waste.

I don't post here much anymore...but I do follow your posts Broc. They are raw honesty...and truth. No rose colored glasses here. And I need to see it. Thank you.

March 18, 2000
1:33 am
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Brenda
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Your life is just beginning kthomas. Dont let yourself get into a negative, pessimistic state. Let go of him and grab onto your life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

March 18, 2000
6:16 am
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janes
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Never a waste if you learned someting..only a waste if you don't use what you have learned

March 20, 2000
1:06 am
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BROC
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kthomas,

Hey you- Can't say I understand how you feel because I have never been put in that particular situation. You know that about me though. No bs.

I do know what a broken heart feels like. I do know the absolute fucking pain chaos brings with it. I know the pain you feel in the lost hopes, dreams, and aspirations you once had but wrote off long ago.

But I also know a few things about you that I KNOW you don't know about yourself, and I want to remind you of.

The neat thing about the internet is that we are all faceless. Just "nicknames" randomly showing up here and there. Much like I am sure God views us. No faces, just millions of spirits moving about trying to find their place (web-site) in life.

So, the first thing I know about you is the fact that your are "here", on this earth, tells me that God thought of you as worthy and valuable enough to create you. Think about that. Isn't that the unlimate compliment? Who gives a shit about shit for brains down at the pokey, what he thinks or doesn't, not to mention all the ex's? GOD thought and still thinks your wonderful.

Second, just by you being here, I know that you are humble enough to admit you need help and are searching to find it. That is VERY telling as to your character. You are kind and compassionate. How do I know? I have had my eye on you as well. Through all your pain you still have been a voice of hope in the darkness for others, INCLUDING myself. To give when your not being given too, well, that is the ultimate form of selflessness!

Third, I know you are far more worthy, and needed, that you realize. I am SURE you have many people around you that rely on you daily. Think of that love, and trust others have in you to HELP them help themsleves.

Jesus, I could go on and on, but you know what, it really wouldn't matter. As you know, the thing with co-dep. is it is fueled by low to no self-esteem. We are empty wells that WILL NEVER be filled; we will never be happy, UNTIL we learn to fill ourselves up. So, until you learn this, what I or anyone else says or believes in you, it won't matter until you believe that about you.

But take this to the bank. God didn't make ANY junk. He created us,and let us run with it. The further we get away from him the further we get away from ourselves. You and I know its no coinsidence that you have had three ex.'s, because the constant has always been the same......you!

Just as I have told many people here, I will tell you my sweet. YOU CHANGE YOU, AND YOUR LIFE WILL CHANGE. IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE. THERAPY! BOOKS. GROUP. DETACHEMENT FROM LOSER BOY, LOSER FRIENDS, AND FAMILY IF NECESSARY.

---------------or--------------------
don't change a thing, and live the same. You are to valuable to stay the same, plus, you know to much now. You know there is better out there. Now, I know your worth it? Do you know your worth it? I am here to help you, as are the rest. Now put one foot in front of the other and walk away from the past, the old, the sick, the FAMILAR into the the scary world of CHANGE. Its great here! Come on in!

B-

March 20, 2000
2:12 pm
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kay
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Broc, that was truely inspirational, well said. I know that what you wrote was addressed to Karin, but I just wanted to let you know that I read along and get a lot out of these threads, they help.

Karin, broc is so right, change is soooo great, and worth it. You are worth it! and you are the only one who can change yourself but first you have to want to change. It doesn't happen overnight but you will feel better. Take what you have learned and apply it for good.

Every day I learn something new and over the past four months I have changed a lot in my life, I have started a new job, found a new apartment, and I get more goals each day. I still have lots to work on, but the postings here have helped me to realise many things, mostly how to value myself and slowly get over the past.

March 21, 2000
1:37 pm
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Kthomas, life circumstances have changed drastically for you ( husband in jail, son, move out of country etc ) for a reason! Life brings us these things because at an unconcious level we may have created this OR we NEED this or both.
Take this prime opportunity, you were not strong enough to leave him, but he is gone, incarcerated, god works in mysterious ways. Do not fall into apathy but fall into the obvious new flow that the river is taking you, towards a new life. If you dont take this opportuninity, you may always regret it.
Your heart and god is speaking to you, heed the call.

March 21, 2000
1:47 pm
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My update:
I am realising that my chronic back pain is partly due to my emotional state, I am frozen in my life and am not moving forward in the personal areas that are imp to me. i.e I am a mama number one but I also have another need, a personal need, that has gone undeveloped so long due to all the energy I have been putting into obssessing and trying to "help" or change others.
I have quit doing all this, my partner is acting more responsibily and sensitively, because he no longer doubts my seriousness and my solidity.
I guess he does really love us.
He hasnt got help for his drinking but he has quit the fri nights and drinks a couple of glasses of wine per night at home with me....
If thats what he chooses, i cant control him. If it gets worse or upsets me again, well I dont have to stay.
We are very connected and do love each other.
Relationships are always meant to dump like a bad date.
Relationships happen because we draw them to us to learn and grow ourselves. If we just run, we lose the lessons and growth.....every situation is different. If two people are just masochistically destroying each other well thats different, if there is hope and each one is taking steps toward a better life and better self, well thats different, adn I DO believe this is possible.
Just as every person is different, every relationship has its fine subtleties and the knowledge to let go or to continue on together is within all of us. No one can TELL us what is best for us, only us and our god truly know that.
It is true, when one starts to heal, the other has to change. IT is a two way street. I no longer blame any one for anything that has happened to me.
I take full responsibility for my life and my relationships, this is very empowering, refreshing and stress releasing.
Obsessions are no longer within me as much, my mind doesnt go round and round on a subject relating to US that I feel is threatening US/ME
The only power I have is with ME and my life.
I dont know about the codep movement, some stuff I agree with and some stuff I see as dangerous sweeping generalities....
I guess people like us needed a label. It is nice to know there are other people out there who suffer for love.....but who doesnt.
Anyways, i am going on....
Take care Karin, broc, hazza and all..god bless

March 21, 2000
3:04 pm
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KSUE
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I just wanted to say a little something here. I agree with Broc, except on one point. I believe God knows us indivisually, our likes our dislikes our desires our heartaches. When we cry he cries with us, when we laugh he laughs with us. He knows every single one of us, it is us who don't know him. Unless we ask.
KSUE

March 22, 2000
2:45 pm
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Brenda
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Hazza, hope you are ok.

March 23, 2000
7:37 am
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hazza
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Hey Brenda,
I think you understand what i mean about changing the boundaries withina relationship don't you! I agree with you, it is not essential to always leave as some people here believe, sometimes relationships can be re-worked. as you said, each "case" must be judged by its own merits, as everyone says if nothing changes then nothings will change, but if you have been in a long relationship but both people are making those changes, then surely to throw away everything is what we call "throwing out the baby with the bath water!"

If two people are committed to the love they feel for each other and are both willing to work at saving it then there is always hope, maybe sometimes it will still never work despite the best efforts on both sides, but as in my case, if both people are willing to try and give a certain amount of time to see if improvements can be made, then how is that wrong????? isn't that what couples councelling is all about?

no one knows the future, maybe there are somethings that people just can't change about themselves, and when that happens then at least you know that you have BOTH tried, but i think there is much too much assumptions here that people cannot see the changes they need to make for themselves and can only be saved by seeing some third party who will miraculously tell them where they are going wrong in life!

It sounds like you are making some compremises with your husband, he is already acknowlaging his drinking problems, and i can tell you that people with these problems go through several ever deepening levels of awareness of their problem. Mostly they don't realise until it is too late and they have lost what really meant something to them, but they do become more and more aware as the situation grows. You may find that you still have problems come up due to your husbands drinking, as he has not fully faced it yet, but he can only come to that conclusion himself. And you can only continue to try your best and not tolerate anything that oversteps your boundaries. But it sounds like his eyes are begining to open to his own issues and it will take him time to come to realise the full extent of any problems he has. Sometimes it takes a while for things to become apparent to people, if you are prepared to take that time and see if he realises, then that is YOUR decision alone, as i said in my post, if you take that choice, there are many burdens that come with it and it is something that you must do with your eyes wide open! but whatever path you take in life is not easy, providing you are making the choice you want and know why you are doing it, then who is to say if that is right or wrong? Like you say there are too many generalities being made.

So Brenda, to answer your question, i am okay. I am doing things for me and sharing things with him too. He has a hard time dealing with the fact that i am still not 100% comfortable with him all the time due to the memories of our past, but he is dealing with that fact very well and understanding that i am still healing. There is a long way to go, but things are much much improved. Only time will tell,
Best of luck to you Brenda, i for one understand why you are making the choices you make, and i do feel that there is a big difference between doing something becuase you are scared and in denial and doing something becuase you know the risks but want to do it anyway!
Peace
Hazza

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