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A flip-floping co-dependent
December 19, 2008
6:09 pm
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Zebra
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(((Mulligan))) (((BBlue)))(((Destinystar)))

You hear that Montel...we got a whole bunch of us for your show....shoot he could make millions off us. lol

Co-Depedant No More is the most awesome book. I love it and read it often. Keep it close it comes in handy.

I am so proud of you all for taking a stand for yourself. WE will succeed and make it all on our own and be very happy and peaceful.

Boundaries are wonderful and it feels so empowering too. 🙂

Take care girls...got go work now, catch up later.

Keep up and keep strong.

Love, Z

December 19, 2008
8:47 pm
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Zebra, Bblue, mulligan- We are truly a group of kindered spirits. Here to celebrate a journey out of codependency. Bblue- please remember that your mans gambling is his problem. not yours. keep an eye on the finances and your valuables. They are well versed in taking stuff to the pawn shop and putting there hands on credit cards, bank accounts, deeds to homes, title to cars to finance their gambling. I heard great things about gamanon. My GF had a live in BF that would disappear then reappear with the gambling thing. One day when he disappeared for a month she put his stuff in her garage, posted a 15 day notice to get his stuff then donated to a gamanon fund raiser. That was it. When he tried to call she didnt take the calls or return them. Then she went out and met someone else. That is how it ended. I was soooo proud of her. He liked called looking for his stuff a year later.

Mulligan I am way impressed by how qickly you are coming to your senses. It took me forever. I just didnt get it. I see great things ahead for you. Read the book, setting up counseling appointments with a counselor that specializes in codependency and admitting you have a problem I mean how good is that? Took me like 2 damn years before I got up off of my sorry ass and waged an all out war against the sad state of affairs I was living in.

Zebra- I am actually going out with someone for their B-day tonight. I feel like it will be another step along my road to recovery.

December 19, 2008
10:54 pm
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Destinystar,

Your two years to get off you sorry ass is nothing compared to my 10 years of sticking with this man. My butt is sooooo flat, due to the fact that it was firmly planted on the couch, that every pair of pants I now try on just fall off.

Well, Mr. J called tonight again. He cannot seem, for the life of him, to understand that I don't feel like working on our marriage anymore. He's just not understanding why I'd give up 20+ years with him like that. Where has he been??? He seems to only remember the good times. I'm sure he doesn't remember the last three years of HELL for me because he was faithfully drunk and blacking out every night. How convenient for him.

I told him I needed my space and I am a sick ticket too. He said, "Well, why does your space have to be divorce? But I've been working so hard and..."

Now I don't want to discredit him but he's only been sober for..hummmm...four weeks (on anabuse). He's driving me crazy.

Any others have this problem? Any good suggestions for responses?

Mulligan

December 20, 2008
3:21 pm
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mulligan- Alcoholics dont understand words just actions. If you are truly done with him put a period at the end of the sentance by letting your feet do the talking. Quit responding. It will only tie your brain in a knot.

The fact that you choose not to work on the marriage does not depend on if he understands it or not. Like you will stay in it cause he dont get it? Or you will work on yourself and your kids the same way he worked on his alcoholism and slithering away from responsibilities. Besides when you are with an alcoholic there is no relationship. There for no relationship to work on.

This man does not have the remote control to your life. You dont have to tune in everytime he pushes your buttons. The only way you will turn his noise off is to tune out as in not allowing him to contact you anymore.

With alcoholics its all about them, their addiction, their recovery, their this, their that, etc. etc. etc. If they do recover that will be years down the road. Then they will use all the info that they used to help them out and exploit you with it. Oh yes, their thinking will become so crystal clear after they dry out that they will tell you every single character flaw you have down the the last detail. I have one that is even better AA tells alcoholics that they cannot be in a relationship cause it will interfere with their recovery.

There isnt any thing you can say to an alcoholic that he will listen to unless it is something they want to hear.

The only thing you can tell him is his recovery is between him and a promise he makes to his cornerstone to recover and has nothing to do with you. Tell him all the talk about antabuse, counselors, your seperation, etc. is disturbing your serenity. Let him know you have your own problems to deal with and he needs to figure the drinking stuff out on his own.

Tell him to get a sponser from AA if he wants someone to listen to all of his BS.

After all where the hell was this guy when you needed something?

If you have to say something and you probably will then tell him Exactly how you feel dont hold back. And if he asks does that mean you dont want him ask him to think about what you just said and ask him if it sounds like he is the type of man you or anyone else would want in their life. If he dont get it then tell him not to call you until he does.

Believe me they will break the guiness book of world records with how many times they will try to contact you until you decide you have had enough and do something drastic to cut the ties.

December 22, 2008
2:48 pm
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Destinystar,
You are so wonderful. Are you a counselor? If not you have completely missed your calling.

I've read half way thru Codependent No More and have read many of the threads that are appearing on this website. My brain is finally starting to calm down-unraveling as you would say.

I'm starting a new therapist tomorrow. She's supposed to be amazing so I'm looking forward to meeting her.

I think my new mantra should be:

"Looking for the period."

How are you doing? I know some about your situation but I was wondering if there's anything I can do to help?

Ms. Mulligan

December 22, 2008
6:14 pm
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DS - I agree - you seem so firm in your convictions and upbeat

I do not take responsibility for the gambling - I did - but I have come past that now

Right now I am concentrating on getting financial affairs in order - his cooperation in this "good" lull in having me take care of liquidating and settling financial issues.

I have told him a few times now that I can not live with the gambling and bit by bit I am accepting that we will probably split.

My life is very much in turmoil also because of the economics and that I was in a career change and that is unstable now... but I have to keep looking out for me...

Take care girls... I am trying to keep my chin up and listening to all you helps.
Thanks

BBlue

December 22, 2008
8:43 pm
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bblue- You say you told him you cannot live with the gambling. But what you are doing is living with him. This sends him the message that his gambling is OK. If you can not live with him. Then SHOW him what you mean by either leaving or kicking him out. This man and gambling are one. It is his mistress. A priority in his life. HIs life revolves around gambling. With that being said he has nothing left to invest in a relationship. All you are is a door mat, a warm place to rest his head. In other words he is using you.

Right not this man is mentally and emotionally split from you. The physical separation will just be a formality.

December 22, 2008
8:44 pm
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To Mulligan and Bblue- I think that both of you must be feeling angry, sad, depressed having to be with men that cannot provide you with the emotional support that you both deserve. But I give both of you all the credit in the world for making the best out of a bad situation.

December 22, 2008
9:05 pm
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mulligan- I think you will get a lot out of counseling and might find it down right enjoyable. You asked if I was a counselor and the answer is nooooooooo. Not even.

I am doing good. Living a calm, peaceful life in the land of normalacy. Just me and my kids.

Thanks for asking if I need help. Sure I could use some help out (now dont go showing me the door LOL).

I have not spoken to my STBX alcoholic in about 2 months. I wrote him a letter and told him that I did not want to have anything to do with him if he was going to have anything to do with anyone or anything that put him where he is today. Then I spelled it out, like not going around his father and step mother who smoke pot everyday, his best friend who sells pot and drinks himself into a drunken stupor, or his daughter who is on drugs and has been living in the streets for over a year and calls the police on him everytime he tells her she cant have sex or do drugs and makes false police reports. Then he blamed me for getting arrested and going to jail 3 times in a year.

So I get a letter in response that told me If I cant let go of the past to move on. And if I dont trust him to just go on with my life without him.

I fully expected this response. I was thinking of writting back and asking him what was he doing now by telling me to move on with my life. I mean is he threatening me to have a good time? I want to tell him that I couldnt agree more about the moving on thing and that as a matter of fact we must have been on the same wave length cause I have been doing just that.

What do ya think? How would you respond?

December 22, 2008
9:20 pm
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You know, Bblue-

Destinystar is correct. Where have these men been for us? Drinking and gambling. Huh. Feel abandoned, crapped on, stepped on, pummeled, etc... Guess what? We allowed them to do that to us. We are entirely responsible for our pain.

I am not blameless at all. I ran away from our problems too but instead of getting completely intoxicated night after night and year after year I just lived a life of denial. Denial that everyone (my family) was in trouble and everyone was feeling the pain. It's been a long journey to finally face the fact that my reality really really sucked/sucks and I have to step up to the plate to change it (for me but especially for the girls.)

Right now I'm learning about the entire grieving process-5 steps that must be gone through in order to accept my reality. I'm, I think, hope and pray, heading down the acceptance lane. I'm sure I'll still flip flop between denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance BUT I have come to accept the fact that I have to do this in order to get through my pain and take control back of my life again.

This evening Mr. J came over to drop off some books of our oldest daughter. The bills came for his last drunken episode which landed his butt in the ER. Now, normally I would have just paid these but this time I told him to deal with the bills. He got really pissed off and stormed out of the house. Reality sucks sometimes, honey. I feel great. I wasn't angry, mad, sad or happy. I was just me. I barely gave his reaction a second thought except that I was very proud of myself for setting my boundries and sticking to them. Yippeee!

Bblue-are you two still living together?

December 22, 2008
11:19 pm
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Yes we are still living together...

I guess I was in denial for a long time... his gambling problem blew up in June.. we first saw a counsellor together in July

And I blamed me somehow - it wasn't until I really accepted that I was codependent (and honestly truely that was just in the last month or so)did I realize I was not to blame and it was just in the last two weeks that I got there...

I had every excuse - his life was changing (career paths) which right now he has none... his health... maybe me... mid life - you name it...
I also thought everyone loved him - mr fun and party... and maybe I was such a stick...
I am a work aholic ... that's what I became thinking more money - I had to have more money to keep things together...

Now I am played out... can't cut it all any more... financially trying to keep him farming (and happy so I thought) pretty much cooked us..

and of course the gambling it did not cause all of the debt but it did not help any either... I can't fund everything nor do I want to anymore..

You are all right - what am I doing here...
I know one thing I need to get two papers signed to legally give me some rights to settle up financial affairs..
Another I had to truly accept that I gave him a fair chance... I confronted him and was honest...

Call it stupid but I know I had to do it.

I am just afraid and I don't know why.. I am smart, a good person, have made an ok living so far..

I feel totally stressed out... My counsellor is on holidays until Jan 5th and all my friends are busy with family ... some times it seems all I have is here and I am afraid I will crater....

Sorry to whine .... I just don't know sometimes.

BBlue

December 22, 2008
11:23 pm
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mulligan- I will give you a HELL YEAH when you said that we are responsible for our pain.

The Denial thing is an excellent point to bring up. I was stuck there for a long while.

The flip flopping or relapse thing is normal.

I loved the part about you telling him to deal with his bills. This is one story that is giving me inspiration.

December 23, 2008
12:48 pm
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Good Morning Destinystar,

I've been getting ready for Christmas for the girls and life is really relaxing. I'm glad they're home for Christmas break. How are your kids doing through all of this?

I was reading your thread. My husband said basically the same thing to me. I told him that I wasn't willing to work on our marriage at this time and I wasn't sure if I ever was. Too fried. I too am enjoying the peace. He then responded that unless I was willing to "move forward" he would be happy to move on too.

To me that feels like they don't want to deal with the past and all the harm their addiction afflicted us. They want a clean slate/a fresh start. The problem with that is we're, once again, left with all past baggage; abandonment, anger, pain, insanity, kids, responsibilities (all the dirty laundry).

Shouldn't sobriety make us happy? Isn't that what we've been hoping and praying for all these years? Joy should abound-not for me. My old anger burns deep and my new anger burns too. It surely wasn't the quick fix I wanted. It's too complicated for me-too much water under the bridge.

So, in response to your question-What is it that you want? Do you have any intention of having this man ever come back into your life? Are you going to have to deal with him with regards to the kids? Do you even need to respond? Is this another manipulation by him to keep contact with you? Is he trying to impose guilt on you again with this ridiculous ultimatum? Do you want to even spend one more millisecond on this man?

You, my friend, are an incredibly strong woman. You have chosen to claw your way out of hell for you and your children. Sounds to me like you're close to the top, fingers clutched on firmly tight on the edge. You should be so proud of yourself-I am!!

Ms. Mulligan

December 23, 2008
12:49 pm
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Destinystar,

P.S. What is STBX?

Mulligan

December 23, 2008
1:58 pm
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mulligan STBX is Soon To Be X. As in he is my soon to be X husband.

I thought about my husbands ridiculous letter. He clearly was not taking responsibility for his choice to drink. He said I helped lead him down the path to where he is today. Uh no its like his alcoholism and drug addiction did. He told me to leave things in the past. On that note I think I will. Since I dont live with him anymore than that includes our relationship which was in the past. As far as his comment about moving forward, oh no he's not he cant he is in prison. I have no choice but to take the remote control out of his hand and tell him I have no reason to trust him not after what he has done. I need to spell it out to him that ists over and I am never bringing myself or my children around his toxic hell again.

You told your husband you werent willing to work on the marriage? Well GOOD for you. I wish I could have stolen that line from you earlier. Could have used it myself. Marriage to an alcoholic is in name only. It is not as if there is anything to work on. Unless your working on ending it. Bout the only thing that would eventually give you a huge sense of relief and accomplishment.

OMG GF in my husbands most recent letter he stated that he wises he could spend years behind bars so that enough time would go by so everyone can forget all about all of the damage that he did to them. Sure all they want to do is anything but own up to their role in the problems and clean up their own mess.

The point that you made about them dumping the responsibilities of the kids, paying bills, etc in our lap is absolutely true.

They should get sober for their own sake. There really is nothing in it for you. Sticking by them trough rehab just prolongs the suffering. And it is just one more endless marathon of things that are in the all about them category. First they cant be there for you cause they are drinking then its cause they are going to rehab.

The anger is justifiable. And until we remove ourselves from the people and situations that trigger it it will burn on.

In responce to your questions. I want to let go of him completely and totally. I hope that I will do everything to make 100% sure that he never comes back in my life. If I dont respond then he wont know what to think. If I write a short to the point letter and tell him its over he will know. Its a matter of me getting up off of my a__ and taking the responsibility of letting that ship sail. Of course he is trying to manipulate me in a last ditch effort to gain control. If I know him he reacted out of anger, then realized what he has done and some letters that will either sound as if the letter never happened will come or he will try to make a pathetic attempt to either apologize or justify. Either way its annoying. HIs ultimatum was in retaliation for me telling him that if he goes back around the people and places that encourage his drinking and arrests then I was done. Instead of hanging his head down and apologizing.

I do not want to spend any more time on him. This letter was the final straw that has given me the courage to put this issue to rest.

December 23, 2008
2:01 pm
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Mulligan- PS my kids are doing better than ever without the alcoholic in there life. We all have experienced drastic changes. All for the better. Things are sane and normal. Down right dull and boring at times.

December 23, 2008
2:16 pm
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bblue- I am glad to hear you will see a counselor. Of course you are depressed. You are flying a plane with the copilot asleep at the wheel. Its scary.

It is also scary and depressing to come to terms with the consequences of making a bad decision. As in winding up with a dysfunctional person. Since you are not in control of what they do or dont do it affects you and complicates things.

Its sad when you thought you were in a relationship then realize you feel more alone with them then without them.

There is also a sense of shame, failure.

If you leave you have to deal with your self by yourself. It is different than life with the dysfunctiional person in it. Even though you hated your life with them it is all you know. You might have to learn new responces and skills to deal with life with out them.

December 23, 2008
2:19 pm
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To Mulligan and Blue- I think that we can all see how we have the ability to admit we have a problem and the ability to change our behavior but I think the hugest challenge we have to face is the fact that maybe our behavior can change but our feelings dont.

In other words, we read the books, watch the movies, post on here but it doesnt seem to put a dent in the irrational feelings and attachments that we have for these dysfunctional partners.

Any one have any insight into how to disolve the glue that binds us to these gambling, alcohol drinking nightmares?

December 23, 2008
3:04 pm
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Yes, awareness of your addiction to these types of people. Once you are aware of your feelings, you can choose to say no to these types of people.

That then opens you up to other types of healthier people, people who dont give you those high feelings with an adrenalin rush. In some ways these people may seem boring to you, but as you get to know them and the peacefulness they hold you get to like it.

The addictive personallity does where off, when more of the other type of people come into your life.

However, it takes lots of hard work, pain, awareness and really yearning to want to get better in yourself.

It can be done. Trust me, I am a living example of this stuff

xxx

December 23, 2008
3:20 pm
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Hi All,

Great threads and such insight for me. I am so glad to know that my work with myself will pay off in the end. I know that I am aware that I go for people with addictive personallities and have been working on not letting them into my life. Instead working on me and my life the way I want it.

I went out last Friday night with a group of men that I bowl with. They wanted me to see there Hang Out. So I went, but did not like what I seen or how I felt in their environment. Of course, they took me to thier local bar...oh YEAH. I got to witness married men pick up on other women and got to see how my bowling partners act. NOT IMPRESSED. I chose to leave after about 2 hours of hell. I just don't fit in in the bar scence and I really don't want anyone that hangs out there on a regular basis. So I think I have learned something about me and how to walk away from things that are not for me.

I do want to me new people and eventually date, but I am not going to a bar (nice or not) to do so. So that leaves me with this....where do I meet new people that are healthy?

December 23, 2008
3:37 pm
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courage to change
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Do the hobbies you enjoy, and if those hobbies involve men, great you will get to meet some interesting people. Otherwise, if your hobbies dont involve the opposite sex, get out their and get involved with what mens hobbies are. You might even enjoy it!!

Good luck

xxx

December 23, 2008
4:40 pm
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(((Courage to Change)))

I do my hobbies and they do involve men. Like bowling and softball and in the spring and summer I like to go to festivals...music, fairs.

What are men hobbies?

December 23, 2008
4:59 pm
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skiing, kitesurfing, karate, judo, tennis, volleyball, chess, car mechanics, dancing, catamarraning, sailing, rock climbing,cyling

I have noticed that men enjoy doing very active sports, and many a time their are not so many women who tend to do these.

I guess it depends what part of the world you are in, etc.

But Ive met most male friendships by doing hobbies I enjoy. It develops my interest and I get to know the opposite sex.

I hope it helps. These are just my suggestions and have worked for me in the past. It may not be for you, but do try going into male environments where you are the many one of few women.

Let me know how you get on.

xxx

December 23, 2008
5:20 pm
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oh I see. I am an active person and do like to do lots of things you suggested, so I guess I am in the right enviroment and need to look around a little.

I am not very good at starting a conversation or keeping one going...any suggestions on that?

XXX

December 23, 2008
9:29 pm
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Courage,

Great advice about meeting men. I'm glad to see that some of you are getting nearer or are in the dating arena. My counselor told me today to stay away from any form of man until a year has passed. I'm still and will be digging deep to find out who I really am and what it is that I really want for awhile. Plus once I get there I'll have learned, hopefully, all the warning signs and red flags.

I thought it was interesting to find out that since all my energy had been focused on my alcoholic husband I have not been able to grow and become a full individual myself. We talked about what all my new found energy will be used for-ME.

Destinystar-my therapist also confirmed what you said in your last thread about my comment on "not wanting to work on my marriage". She explained that there is no relationship with my husband and there hasn't been one for a long long time. It's all been about him and his drinking-not me and the girls. I see that for you too. When does your STBX get out of jail? I'm glad you and the kids are doing so much better. Isn't it nice to go to bed and night and not think about the drunk bedfellow and what he'll do next? Hummm-pass out, hit his head, leave the stove on after his drunken episode of eating, be an asshole in the morning, etc.

Peace oh glorious peace.

You know-that's what I wish for all of us. Peace.

Ms. Mulligan

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