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A flip-floping co-dependent
December 13, 2008
11:03 pm
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mulligan
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I just started reading your conversations. It's interesting how inspirational your stories are and how different everyone's recovery (so to speak) is progressing.

I'm 5 months separated from my husband of 19 years. I finally came to the realization that I needed to protect myself and the girls from his devastating alcoholism. Our lives have been ever so much more peaceful, but I catch myself in my codependent thinking all the time.

It seems my life keeps resolving around the "What if..."s. Does anyone else out there flip-flop like me? It's so hard to break this cycle.

December 14, 2008
10:17 am
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CAMER
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yes, the dreams "we had" are all down the drain. and they were just that, dreams, not reality.

I think I too feel this way, hoping and wishing things go a certain way, and then when they don't I get upset...and I always tend to think of all the good, and there is alot of bad in my past with codependency, and sometimes I need to focus on the bad and why i put up with things.

Keep posting & know you are not alone!

December 14, 2008
10:32 am
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chelonia mydas
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Welcome Mulligan!!!

It is normal to flip flop with this. I have had the same struggles with my ex. The best thing for me was to go "no contact" where I had no contact with him at all. Not even looking at his webpages, not driving by his apartment to see how he was, no e-mailing, texting, talking, calling etc.

It is soooo hard, but sooo worth the struggle.

After 27 months of seperation from him, he called me just after Thanksgiving. He had lost his job and didn't want to move back in with his mother. Could he stay with me? I couldn't give him an answer at first. Then I spent several hours in torment over the what ifs and wanting to save him and wanting to love him and continually telling myself that I didn't love him, but I loved the unrealistic fantasy I created in his image that he will never live up to. In the end, I called him back and told him that he is still not welcome here and should make other living arrangements. Broke my heart all over again to hear him crying, but at the same time I had to keep telling myself that it is all part of his selfish game. I am worth living a peaceful and meaningful life. It is my responsibilty to save myself. His salvation is his responsibility. His life is none of my business.

So a couple weeks later, I'm at the computer, drinking coffee with my favorite music playing, the pets and I living in peace. The only drama I encounter is at work and even then I'm learning to not get involved. My home has become a place I come to recharge and rest.

Had I brought him back into my life, I would probably be in daily conflict by Christmas and staying at work at much as possible to avoid the chaos he brings to my life.

But I only know this because I have flip-floped many times before. He has had many chances and I have taken him back before because "things were different this time". Through previous times, I have finally learned. As hard as it is to stand my ground, it is harder to jump back into the cycle of drama and chaos and get out again.

Flip-flop in your head and heart as much as you need to (I still do myself whenever I hear from him or see something that reminds me of him)... but do your best to stay strong in action and don't give up the peace you have worked so hard to gain.

Sending you hugs and comfort and strength to get you through this difficult time, Chelonia

December 14, 2008
12:21 pm
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mulligan
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Thank you Camer and Chelonia! You cannot imagen how positive I feel after your insight and responses. I wish more than anything that we weren't caught up in this codependency cycle but it's also reassuring to know I'm not alone.

Chelonia-you must be so proud of yourself for telling you ex that he's not allowed in your life again. The contact issue is huge for me as it is for you.

I'm having a hard time setting my boundries with two girls involved. As I read some of the blogs last night I began to look at his pattern of contact with me. You nailed it on the head when you said "it's all part of his selfish game". It's truly still all about him. He keeps making contact with me, constantly, but still has such limited non-direct contact with the girls or highly suggested contact with them from me. It makes me so sad for them. I guess there's not much to give when you're hollow inside.
But the pain is still so fresh. He once again has chosen himself over all of us.

Thank you again for reinforcing to me that I need to just remember that the rotten bad times far outweigh the "good" times. His chances with me are gone and I need to focus on me and the girls now. Limit my flip-flopping to my hair style not my heart.
Mulligan

December 14, 2008
12:40 pm
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atalose
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Mulligan,

Hi and welcome, you made me laugh with the limiting the flip-flopping to your hair style not your heart. Laughter can certainly be great medicine, keep that thinking and you will do just fine.

I know for me a long time ago when I was going through my divorce I wanted to protect my children, not see them hurt and my codependency attempted to control their hurt and sad emotions they felt from their fathers lack of interest in truly wanting to spend quality time with them. He was all about himself, all about his job. I found myself making excuses for him so they would not feel to hurt when he disappointed them by not keeping his promise to take them on his scheduled weekends.

As it was pointed out to me I was taking on his issues, shouldering his responsibilities and that I should just let the cards fall where they will and just be there for my kids to vent without making excuses for him. I remember the first time I said “I just don’t know why he does this” because I was so used to saying things like “he had something come up at work and he really would like to spend time with you guys but his job is keeping him from it this weekend”. It freed me in many ways; I never bad mouthed him I just let things fall how his behavior dictated without interfering in that process.

Atalose

~~Hope has a place, but not above reality~~

December 14, 2008
8:41 pm
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bblue
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You all sound so strong and I feel so like I am just floundering...

I still haven't been able to come to grips with my spouse's gambling and my codependent behaviors... I mean I am starting to understand some things but still have no strength to end it...

I play everything in my head at night ... how do you stop that?

I wish I was further but I am not yet..

BBlue

December 14, 2008
9:11 pm
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CAMER
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bblue..take baby steps, set boundaries, it will make you feel better. We don't become codependent overnite, and yes, its hard to break up and break habits, but if you do it lil' by lil' it does get easier, i can promise you that!!!

December 14, 2008
10:55 pm
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mulligan
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bblue,

You must know that it took me literally 10 years plus to realize that my alcoholic husband was not getting any better and another three years of sheer agony and hell until I was able to ask him to leave. It's also been five to six solid months of me questioning myself on a daily even hourly basis as to whether or not I've make the right decision.

I cannot tell you how many sleepless nights I've spent just wondering and praying for some sort of answer. And guess what? I still need someone to bonk me over the head. I still have not definite answer.

I had a friend tell me, after I called her in a fit of desperation, that I certainly could feel sad for myself but that she'd only give me one hour a day to do so. She really didn't care what hour-12-1 or 1-2, etc... but that's all I was allowed to obsess about it.

bblue-it took us 24 steps to get into this forest and it's going to take 24 steps to get out. I'm still at least 10-15 steps away from the forest's edge. Let's take small steps together.

Mulligan

December 14, 2008
11:47 pm
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_anonymous
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mulligan- I married an alcoholic. Back and forth countless times. Not to mention the fact he went in and out of jail 3 times in less than 2 months.

I am celebrating 3 months of living alone with my kids hours away from him. I have more serenity and have been able to put my life back in order.

It kind of went something like this. Life with him was living in a chaotic hell. Then as soon as he would leave to go on an uninterrupted drinking binge, or I would leave or he would get locked up this smooth talking man would appear. But only long enough to bait me back into his trap. Then I would be right back in his alcoholic hell. Then one day my will to restore my sanity became stronger then my will to subject my self to his insanity and I was ready to leave.

Ever since I left I have spent my entire time rebuilding my life and repairing my relationship with my sons. I forced my self to take classes, brush up on my career, ride my horse, work out, spend time with friends. It was almost like untangling a ball of yarn. Very painstaking. But the harder I worked and the more I had invested in my new life the less I was willing to allow him to up set the apple cart again.

I knew i was getting better when the separation did not cause me to loose sleep or weight. When the phone rang and i didnt feel like answeing it because I was too busy getting on with my life.

The last time he called over a month ago all I told him that the only thing he needed to think about was never picking up another drink of alcohol and told him to finish an inpatient rehab program goodbye.

On my birthday he entered an inpatient program and the best gift I have ever received was to hear him say "Hello I'm ____ and I'm an alcoholic" he went on to tell the group that he was there because he hit rock bottom and lost the most precious thing he had in the world his wife and never wanted to drink the poison that caused him to destroy his life ever again".

I still wont live with him or see him. He has only begun his journey into sobriety. I have no idea if he will or will not stay in the program. I realize that the chances of him having a relapse is huge.

All I have been able to do is take responsibility for my role in the wreckage. So I have been busy killing myself putting my life as well as the lives of my children back together piece by piece.

The more I help me and my kids, the more time I live with out him = the easier life with out him gets and the more detached I become from him and his illness.

December 15, 2008
12:01 am
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bblue- I find myself at times having my head filled with unresolved conflicts as well. As long as you are with your husband and he continues to be gambling you will have never ending disturbing thoughts that will keep you awake at night. Why? Because you are powerless over his gambling.

First you need to focus on yourself. Try to figure out what benefit it is for you to stay with this man? What benefit would it be for you to leave him?
You are trying to understand why he gambles. He is addicted to gambling and doesnt want to stop it because he CHOOSES to do it because it is something that he enjoys doing, it makes him feel good.

He will not stop gambling unless he chooses to stop.

If he does not choose to stop gambling then in a matter of time he will hit rock bottom. For some gamblers it is when they run out of money for others it is when their spouse leaves for others it is when they go to jail for stealing money or write bad checks.

As long as he gambles his addiction will be his priority. He will beg, borrow and steal to gamble use you like you are a pawn in his game called life, ignore you like you dont exist.

At some point you may realize that it is alot more scary to stay with someone like that then it is to leave them.

I found going to Anger Management helped me deal with all the negative thoughts that my alcoholic put inside of my head

December 15, 2008
12:58 am
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Destinystar,

It looks like you and I are in the same alcoholic boat-rocking away and on the verge of capsizing. I too have spent the last 5 months separated from my husband. He's claimed in the last month that "Something has changed" and he's no longer going to put that "poison into his body". Does this sound familiar to you? How were you able to not talk with him for two months? I cannot seem to get that time for detachment. He keeps calling me but still has very little interest in the girls.

Are your kids in counseling? I'm thinking of putting my youngest in therapy. She's not overtly showing signs of distress but has a lot of ambivalence towards her father.

Mulligan

December 15, 2008
1:02 pm
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Thanks everyone! I really needed to read this thread. I came face to face by accident with my ex over the weekend. I was with my family so he stopped to chat with us for few minutes. He was telling me he'd been sick and he looked bad. I was tormented about what could have been the whole next day, and just kept reminding myself of the total desolation of loving him. Two days later and I'm back on track. I wonder when this will stop altogether, its been 10 months.

December 16, 2008
2:23 pm
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mulligan- OMG GF!!!!! My husband said those same exact words. But how many times have I heard him say it only to be back in business in a matter of no time. Unless they get a sponsor from AA and attend meetings everyday until they get into and complete an intensive in patient rehab program it will NEVER change.

When they decide to change only because you left them or the cops slap some matching braceletts on their wrists and they wake up in a cell with 100 of their closets friends its BULLSHIT.

If a man is seriouse about change he will do it with or without your threats or law enforcement involvement.

When you talk to them all they have is the words you want to hear. Alcoholics dont understand words only ACTION. And unless he shows you he is in AA or rehab I wouldnt give him anymore listening time.

December 16, 2008
3:24 pm
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I am new to this website but found this thread to be very helpful. I have been in a relationship with a man who binge drinks and the time between his bouts of drinking can for long periods without it. Just when I trust that things are getting better he dives back in the bottle. I moved out the day before Thanksgiving and my anger was a great motivator but now that I am living alone and the rage has passed, the depression has set in and I am in such pain I want to run back. Reading these posts helps.

December 16, 2008
3:36 pm
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Casey, don't run back!! you will go back to the same problems.

Keep posting and talking about your feelings or start a new thread and we will help you thru these tough times, ok!!

(((camer))))

December 16, 2008
5:07 pm
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Casey- Being in the situation will produce nothing but anger. Why? Because you are powerless over this mans addiction. Unless both of you get help the cycle will continue indeffinitly.

You say you feel depressed? That is an awful feeling. When we deal with an alcoholic we spend so much time on their dysfunctional behavior that we dont have to deal with our own issues. When you are not with him you dont have his alcoholism to hide behind and you have to deal with yourself.

If you want to get better you might want to consider getting treatment for your depression. You just think that going back around the alcoholic will cure it.

If there is any hope for your situation do what ever it takes to get better. When the alcoholic sees someone getting better sometimes it inspires them to get better to.

Besides being with the alcoholic does anything else make you feel good?

December 16, 2008
5:58 pm
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This thread has helped me so much today. I am to flip-floping in my head and heart, but not going back and not contacting him.

My Ex was trying today to bring drama of another women into my life because his is so messed up. It took an act of God to get his emails blocked and then my phone starting ringing, but I to ignored that.

I do find the more I focus on myself and my children the better off I am and my life has not chaos, just peace. I am sure in time my heartache will go away.

Thank you All. Z

December 16, 2008
6:08 pm
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mulligan
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Destinystar-

What a riot you are! It makes me wonder where all the alcoholics keep there handy-dandy "sayings" book. Maybe if we could get our hot little hands on one of them we could actually come up with some great retorts.

Just out of sheer curiosity-how long have you been divorced from you Ex?

Casey and All-

Let me give you my history. My husband (let's call him Mr. J) has been an alcoholic for a good 15+ years in my estimation. We've been married for 18 years. We found each other right out of college. I never drank much in college but after I graduated I found it fun and relaxing to let my hair down. The problem started when I quit drinking and decided to move on from our "fun" lifestyle and buckle down, have and family and start a different chapter.

Mr. J. never stopped. Years and years went by with awful infrequent episodes of binge drinking but they, of course, escalated into him becoming an amazing professional drinker.

My anger is and has been great. He's blacked out every time he drinks now for two years. He's just awful. Even in his "sobriety" during the day he's gone. He's abandon me and the girls emotionally long ago.

Up until the last three years, after he quit his job and started fixing and flipping homes, he's been a mildly functioning drunk. The last year took its toll and he just was functioning a 1/4 of who he was.

I asked him to move out six months ago. Casey-I was devastated. I wept and wept for weeks. How could I have done this to a man who was already down in the dumps? How could I have stuck with him? How could I leave him? I questioned myself thousands and thousands of times. Am I right? Am I wrong?

At the five month mark he moved back in. He SWORE up and down that he'd been sober. Literally within two hours (TWO BLASTED HOURS!) of being at home he was drunk, fell twice and knocked himself out, and ended up in the ER so they could see if he had a closed head injury.

It was after the firefighters loaded his drunk sorry ass (sorry if I've offended anyone) into the car for me to drive him to the ER that I noticed my youngest 11 year old daughter in the darkened kitchen, arms crossed and tears streaming down her face. At that moment I realized I was done not for me but for my two beautiful loving kind smart glorious children.

He's gone. And like you, Casey, I'm depressed, elated, angry, sad and confused. BUT...I refuse to let him back into this door until I have healed myself and my girls with therapy and time.

As Camer has said, "Don't run back!" You and I need to give ourselves time, time and more time for healing and therapy. Let's let someone else help us sort thru our co-dependent selves.

Please send me a posting so we can support one another.

Mulligan

December 16, 2008
6:26 pm
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Zebra
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Mulligan

You did the right thing and it is so hard I know. You will be okay and so will your girls. In time. Keep positng for me and you.

December 17, 2008
12:10 am
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All you guys
Thanks for answering and posting...
I have hit rock bottom...
The gambling hasn't stopped - it has escalated again...

We had this really nice couple of evenings - it was my birthday yesterday and the "guy" I met years ago was there...

But today the gambler and f u attitude it back ...

I am just scared about myself and that I will crater.

BBlue

December 17, 2008
6:59 am
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chelonia mydas
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Stay strong everyone. It is worth it.

After a while and a lot of work, you can and will find yourself, find you are worth it and gain an internal feeling that you deserve better than what these people are able to give.

Over the past 18 months I am truely amazed at how good it feels to actually feel my worth, not just give lip service to it, but actually KNOW I am worth it. If I had gone back to my ex I would never have been able to reach this point.

I still have a long way to go, but I can tell you that the pain subsides and things do get better. It only feels like your life is crumbling beneath you. What is actually happening is you are in a period of transition. Keep going, there is a better life for you.

Sometimes I've thought of this experience as a journey. Living in an abusive relationship is like living in the scrublands, where all the food is dry and tough and covered in spines. The water is muddy and tastes sour. Everywhere there is hard packed dirt and it is always too cold or too hot and only on rare occasions is it just right for a while. For all living in the scrublands, its those rare occasions that we all hold on to as the reason we stay here... "because its really not that bad and there are good times".

But then we see others who seem to have things together and are in relationships that have their ups and downs, but are not entwined with drama and abuse. This is like hearing tales of a wonderous lush place that has all that you dreamed of and more. Where the trees are full of fruit and the stream has cool, clear, delicious water to drink. The ground is covered in mosses that provide a soft place to rest.

But whenever you try to leave the scrublands, all you see is desert. The pain and heartache that surrounds you is like a journey through the desert. You feel so alone and the pain is so intense you sometimes think you will implode from the agony of it.

The moment you leave your abusive partner, you are at the edge between the scrublands and desert. It is so easy at this point to return to the scrublands and continue to feast on bitter spiny foods where you are never quite comfortable. It is only when you are completely torn up from life here that the pain and lonilness of the desert seems tolerable. Even if we don't go back to the same partner, we may find ourselves back in a different scrubland if we don't take the time to travel through the desert first.

Once you enter on your journey through the desert, it is easy to want to go back. But it is important that you make this journey and keep going inspite of the pain and discomfort. There are many important lessons to learn here. You find your true inner strength, you discover yourself and that you CAN walk alone. You gain perspectives that can only be seen in the dry clear environment found here.

Eventually you will begin to see the lush and fertile land ahead. Once you start to get a glimpse of self care, self worth and self confidence you will truely appreciate how worth while this journey has been.

I am still in the desert of my journey, but I am at the edge of the forest ahead. I often can't beleive that this really exists or that I deserve such good things. But I continue to work at it and look forward to my new life.

December 17, 2008
12:17 pm
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chelonia- What a beautiful well thought out analogy. One I can relate to. I am out of the scrublands. Having too much fun in the lush land.

December 17, 2008
12:36 pm
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Chelonia,

WOW...that is perfect and I so relate. I am in the middle of the desert and I know that there must be a forest somewhere and I will continue on as painful at times as it is.

I to want to really feel my worth.

(((Destinystar))) Much better day for me today and I am thankful for this gift of today.

December 17, 2008
1:05 pm
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Mulligan- You took a really huge step by taking the kids and moving out. You can NEVER live with a man who is engaged in active addiction such as drinking, drugs, gambling, porn, etc. And not drinking, doing drugs, gambling, porn, etc. as in abstinence is NOT REHAB. Cause it is common for an addict to get on and off the wagon. Even though many times they are clever enough to fool us into thinking they quit when they just sharpen their skill at doing it behind our backs.

I did hear you say that you wont go back to him until you and the kids get counseling. What about him? Unless he admits he has a problem and wants to get help and completes a program he will just take all of the work that you and the girls have done on and destroy it in a matter of no time and you will be right back where you started.

The alcoholic and codependent are two different sides of the same coin. The co-dependent is as addicted to the alcoholic and their chaos and confusion as the alcoholic is to the alcohol. As long as you spend every waking moment trying to make sense out of an alcoholics alcohol soaked brains nonsense you dont have to deal with your own issues. The issues that you have that make it feel damn near impossible to stay away from the alcoholic, that make you feel like you feel that you literally cannot function with out the alcoholic in your life. These are similar to the alcoholics dependency on alcohol. First they drink so they can feel detached from all of their emotional pain, then it becomes a physical dependency. In some cases if an alcoholic quits drinking cold turkey they can go into Delerium Tremors and die. That is the DT's or endless convulsions. So it helps for them to go to a medically supervised detox program and get valium or some other medication while they are going through alcohol withdrawals.

I know this is alot of information but I am trying to get what you need so you can understand what is going on. It is not your fault. Nothing you caused.

The only advise I can give you is if he calls tell him that you do not want to talk to him until he gets a sponsor from AA at the very least, attends meetings everyday or goes in patient. Thats the only hope left. If you continue to talk to him and he isnt getting help then you are enabling him to continue. If he says he will quit on his own. Dont you believe it. He cant. Even if he wants to. He is powerless over it at this point. Its not that he doesnt love you or he is lying he is in denial. He needs to first admit he has a problem before he can get help. Be tough.

No I am not divorced. Just living without my husband until he completes a rehab program. Right now we are looking at August of 2009 before I will even think about being around him again. Right now it is up to him to make a promise between him and the power that will help him overcome his addiction that he will never drink again. With an alcoholic you have to tell them to SHOW you what they mean. Dont listen to their words.

One last thing I will share with you is that I was able to overcome my helplessness by staring my husband in the face and telling him I couldnt like lake that anymore and that either he got help with his addictions or we were through.

Keep us posted on your journey. I am here for you.

December 17, 2008
1:13 pm
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Zebra- The desert? Yep there is a forest but after you leave the desert you have to climb up a very tall mountain and up is always a good direction to go in. Then when you reach the top it is all down hill before you reach NIRVANA.

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